About 22 years give or take...Some as engineer, some as assistant, some as musician...You know the drill.

As for comparisons of real SSL vs Plugins, there are some interesting videos on youtube.

This one is pretty nice. It's in Portuguese, though. They've used extreme settings to exacerbate possible differences...Brainworx does pretty well here, if you ask me...There's a difference, of course, but not night and day as some of you are trying to imply...Waves, on the other hand, sounds like crap.

The owner of the console himself says that the difference is negligible in practical terms, and he mostly prefers the console for the workflow.

The fun part starts at the 06:00 mark.

There's also this one, in Japanese, which is pretty complete. They test all SSL emulations, from UAD to Brainworx to Duende and Waves, against the real deal.

Softube wins this one, if you ask me. Sounds very close to me.

So, to sum up, yes, there always a difference. Is it a night and day difference? No, it's not. Definitively.

 

Last edited: Feb 22, 2021

Threads like these are actually very rare on the internet, would you guys agree?
A lot of great information.

 

Last edited: Feb 22, 2021

Hehe
I see it similar. But I also understand when people don't want to service their device when it has developed its own timbre due to aging processes. Sometimes they just sound like shit and sometimes, well, kind of interesting.

 

Sounds pretty damn close on my broken laptop speakers. Good enough for me..! ;)

The main difference, as I see it, is that none of the in-the-box software solutions gives me a raging boner quite like sitting in front of the real thing. It's going to be at least the 24th century until the technology can catch up with that...

 

Last edited: Feb 22, 2021

Yeah, of course. We all know how we, humans, are affected by nostalgy and how our perception of things is highly inaccurate and directly affected by a huge number of variables.

It's very funny, though. I was repairing a guitar once and the guy bought a 200USD capacitor for the tone pot...200 friggin dollars for a capacitor, just because it's "boutique".

I did a test with a bunch of leftover capacitors with the same value and got virtually identical results at least in 3 out of 10 tests....If he asked me, I would gladly give him one for free.

Oh lord, people have a serious problem with the perception of tone...

Man, people buy home theater cables for 1000 bucks...lol

When I see top mixers like Andrew Scheps going entirely ITB (in 2014!!!)...What can I say? We are living at the point where mixing in the box, all pros and cons properly weighted, is already "better".

 

Last edited: Feb 22, 2021

think about it, if they modeled an SSL console perfectly in software, SSL would have a hard time selling as many real consoles. So maybe (puts on tinfoil hat) SSL only licenses their name to developers who make the emulations bad on purpose.

 

You're right. Those people begging for a $20 voucher to get the PA plugins in a sale are clearly the same market to install a $100,000+ console in their spare bedroom. That's pretty smart of SSL...

 

Pure Hardcore Hardware Pornography

 

those speakers tho'

 

Home sweet home

 

Depending on the capacitor and intended use, I would also usually go for something higher priced and not turn over every dime. So it might be 20, but 200?? Oh man, that's crazy!

 

Last edited: Feb 22, 2021

Please enlighten me as what plugin accurately captures the dimension and depth of vacuum tubes.... I'll gladly sell my DW Fearn, Black Box HG-2, and Requisite gear if they can do as you say. The HG-2 plugin sounds like a efx next to the hardware, lol. Acustica Audio's Nebula is the closest I've heard but still is not all the way there..... especially when driven.

So again, please enlighten me since I'm not correct.

 

Last edited: Feb 23, 2021

Some real nonsense written here, lol.

Vintage gear can be less reliable sometimes, but some of the finest gear I've used has been very old. In fact the single finest microphone I've used was Jim Z's vintage stock U47 out of Zac's in Atlanta. He cut Boyz 2 Men's "End of the Road" on it and I cut many songs on it including Bobby V feat 50 Cent "Altered Ego". I've used some of the best mic's ever made and that old 1948 made mic was flat out incredible sounding, and all stock with it's original metal tube. Some old gear just ages well despite what you want tell yourself. So some vintage gear can and does sound special.

You are very wrong about all the great records being made when the old gear was new, in fact you are full of it on this one as many great songs have used vintage gear many years after it was made, lol. IE: "End of the Road" is a great classic song, recorded 40 some years after that 1948 U47 was made.

Credibility is everything, if you keep this kind of posting up you'll be loosing some.

 

Last edited: Feb 23, 2021

Will, respectfully, I usually don't answer to replies with that kind of implied rudeness.

This is an internet forum and I'm here to chat, learn, have fun. I'm not here to fight, to prove myself to others and things like that.

Credibility? Come on man...Seriously?

I understand that we're living through hard times and that might make some people a bit cranky, but please, if you really feel like you need to address me in a reply, have in mind that I'm just a good guy trying to have some good conversations on the web, trying to have fun.

Life is already hard as it currently is. Don't unload this bad energy on strangers on the internet. It's not good for you. It's not good for them.

That being said, here's my perspective on vintage gear.

Either you approach the subject as science or as voodoo/magic/fairy dust. I choose science.

Electrical components don't age well. Period. This is a known issue to anyone who relies on electronic circuits for accuracy. Ask NASA.

Obviously, vintage gear will sound different (not better) with time and some people may attribute emotional value to it because that's what we do as humans.

We get attached to things, specially things that tell stories.

However, all which happens is that some components, as they age, have their values altered by some extent, until they stop working completely. We're talking mostly about capacitors. This loss of value is mostly predictable, and there's even mathematical equations to simulate it. Some plugins have this "age" option, based on these algorithms.

Values are all that matter in electronics. Not age, not vintage, not NOS. A fifty years old capacitor will sound exactly the same as a new one, as long as they have the same construction and measurements. The same goes for transformers and everything else.

There's no magic to it. It's all in your head. There's nothing so elusive that could be called "special" about vintage gear at all.

So, if that fantastic old microfone you've used sounded that great, man, it's not because of its age, but because it's always been great. I'm sure it sounded just as good when it was new, if not better (which is most likely).

It's just that we're emotional beings with a big vulnerability to be fooled by nice stories.

That's ok if you don't agree with it, right? People don't have to agree with each other. I'm perfectly fine with it.

Anyway, I feel like it's a waste of time to talk about that.

People are still around arguing about which kind of wood is better for non acoustic instruments like electrical guitars, although it's been scientifically proven that it doesn't matter.

Man, people are so vulnerable to this kind to emotional storytelling that plugin companies put photorealistic vintage like UIs with scracthes and rust on friggin vst plugins, in order to aggregate perceptive value to them... lol

When you go to forums like Gearslutz, there are usually ten pages of people complaining about the GUI of a certain plugin and just a couple where people actually talk about how it sounds. That sums up really well how vulnerable our senses are to these kinds of things.

In the end, people will just believe what they want to believe...And I'm ok with that as long as it doesn't escalate to violence.

Everyday, more and more extremely experienced audio engineers move ITB and still sound as good as they used to sound when they worked in a room full of expensive vintage gear. That's all that matters.

The rest is superstition and wishful thinking.

 

Last edited: Feb 23, 2021

Yes, absolutely. I remember one session where our C414 was broken. It just produced fuzzy distortion. Did it sound good? Well, no, but for that recording it was just perfect! The famous "magic accident" . I ended up using it as an effects mic for the vocals and gave it to my colleague for repair after the recording session.

I think it's these kind of things that are crucial to this issue. What objectively represents a sound degradation may be subjectively pleasing. Human perception is subjective.

 

Yes, absolutely. Some components, specially capacitors, which are most vulnerable to aging, lose efficiency as they age, which may result in apparently more "sweet", less "brittle" tone...Nothing that can't be done by simply replacing these components with new ones with the same values, though.

What I mean is, there's no intrinsic value to the aging process of electronics. That's it.

Anyway, to exemplify how vulnerable we are to these kinds of beliefs, there's a never ending discussion about how a certain capacitor of a certain material or construction is better than the other, in terms of tone...This discussion have been going on for ages in the pedal, amp building and audiophile communities...This is the stuff which led that guy I told you about to buy a 200USD boutique capacitor... lol

Well, it turns out that, independently of the material or construction of a capacitor, if they have the same value, they'll always sound the same. It's been proven and measured a billion times, but people still believe this nonsense, and some people still sell 50c capacitors for 200 bucks.

Here's a cool article about it, if you're interest:

http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=224

M.

 

Last edited: Feb 23, 2021

I think you are confusing a capacitor with an analog console and putting it all in the same scientific approach.
If it was so easy you could just buy a cheap behringer 24 channel mixer and live happily ever after.
If you are building equipment from a pure mathematical perspective you wont get far, as Rupert Neve said.
Many have tried and always failed, his words not mine.

 

That's all a console really is, in its core. A bunch of capacitors, resistors, transformers, etc...But capacitors are the only ones which "age", and they are the ones which cause this "tone changing with time" phenomenon. The rest of the components mostly just stop working as their time come to an end.

Of course not. This is comparing apples and oranges. SSLs and Behringers have completely difference schematics and build quality.

Of course. An excellent pair of ears like Mr.Neve's is what separate boys from men. Having great ears and using them to fine tune his projects have nothing to do with believing in fairy tails, though.

Anyway, I have an idea.

Since I've already explained my point of view, it's your turn to explain yours:

What possible reasons could explain the concept of electronic hardware sounding better as they age?

Looking forward your feedback, honestly.

 

Last edited: Feb 23, 2021

1. I'm up for discussions, but you are making blanket statements here, not me. When you write "This whole idea that vintage sounds better is nonsense", you are discounting the times in working sessions that vintage gear is actually the better tool is dealing with sound energy. Not voodoo or magic, when that vintage gear is just the best tool that day.... happens all the time all around the world, but the opposite also happens daily. I myself sit in a hybrid mix room with mostly new gear as I do not like the maintenance needed on vintage gear. I've actually worked in some of the finest studios in the U.S. and have heard vintage gear that was just actually better sounding in some cases, and I've worked sessions where my modern gear smoked the vintage counterpart, my Requisite Pal Plus won many preamp battles, lol.
FWIW, you may want to visit the Capital studios one day to see what vintage gear that has been maintained properly can actually sound like.

2. When you also write "all the great records made using these classic equipment have been made while they were relatively new and in excellent conditions" you are discounting 50 years of great music made on vintage gear. Again making blanket statements when many thousands of great songs have been made on vintage gear is actually nonsense.

3. I'm also still waiting for these "very accurate vacuum tube emulation algorithms" you are saying exist.... again please enlighten me with which ones they are so I may test them against my modern tube gear..... and may the best tool win.

4. I personally know or am one degree from every engineer mentioned in this thread, it's a small community at the top. Every major mixer that has moved ITB still has racks of modern and vintage gear to track on the front end. They are just using the DAW as the console because deadlines became too tight to make money. None of these guys sold their tracking hardware, but nobody likes to talk about that, lol. The rule is capture the source at the highest level through the best gear, modern and vintage, and mixing ITB is a breeze, with a little 2 bus hardware sweetening. These young kids are creating all ITB and then mixing ITB and wonder why they can't get the sound of their favorite engineer that also mixes ITB. They must be educated that their favorite engineer tracked everything with top end hardware. They must be taught about harmonics and the depth they impart to sound energy, manipulating harmonic distortion is a lost art IMHO..

5. FWIW, having an opinion and pushing it as blanket fact is not something that will fly when knowledgeable professionals are in the chat.

Again, I love a hybrid tool approach to offer the best tools possible when I work. I want the best tools possible and I don't discriminate.

 

Will, I'll answer all your questions with great care once you explain to me how electronic gear can possibly sound better as they age.

However, I suspect we're having a communication issue here. Have in mind that english is not my native language, please. It's exhaustive trying to express complex ideas with a foreign language.

If we're talking about "old built like a tank with excellent components gear" sounding better than "new terribly designed gear built in China with horrible components", then I completely agree with you and we can shake hands and close this debate.

But then, it's not really about being vintage and the magic that it may impart, right? It's about build quality.

However, if between two pieces of gear, built with the same quality, one new and the other old, you tell me that the "vintage" one will sound better because of age, then we have a problem and we'll keep running in circles.

 

Last edited: Feb 23, 2021