well most of those boards have 2 cpu sockets, so they are actually almost cut in half in terms of ram slots and pci slots per cpu,
also the layout and PCI lane setup of those slots means it's literally impossible to use multiple 2-slot height cards at full x16 speed

Neil attempted Unobtanium and entire YT community couldn't provide matching specced PC, just sayin'

 

Funny, I would say exactly the Opposite

Instead of halving it for the CPU, you get an additional CPU Socket

(Now, entering dual-socket systems, each CPU has dedicated local memory and the memory of the other CPU can be accessed indirectly over QPI which is in simple words a link between the two CPUs)

I can play this game too

Build me a MAC with following Requirements

CPU : AMD Ryzen or Epic
Mainboard: at least PCI-E 4.0
Full Windows compatibility
NVIDIA GPU for Video editing
(I just need this states for my workflow here )

ok on this one, I can agree
Layouts of most boards could be better .

 

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2020

I'm watching this thread, Dave.

 

When you spend so much on a server and gpus, it only makes perfect sense to have liquid cooled GPUS that occupy 1 slot. Especially when those GPUs work overtime. Btw, rack servers as workstations (that is for musicians) may not be the best choice unless they are put in a different isolated room as those 1U racks are noisy as fk lol.

Errr... where exactly is Thunderbolt 3 on the Asrock board mate ? Because afaik it doesn't have any and so does any other AMD server board. And for the record the Asrock board features a mix of pci-e 4 and 3 slots, the SuperMicro is full pci-e 4...
OCulink, although a pci-e expansion on a cable, similar to Thunderbolt tech in terms of multi-connectivity support, is NOT Thunderbolt. In fact it is a rival technology developed by PCI-SIG. And for this matter OCulink is quite common in server and some workstation boards since it was first introduced in 2012, because it can be configured to connect either nvme drives, or Sata or SAS. Some boards (Tyan comes to mind) even include OCulink-2 which is a pci-e 4 extension rather than the pci-e gen.3 standard of the older OCulink.
Now expansions wise, you'd be hard pressed to find a feature not included in SuperMicro boards. Along with Tyan they set the standards in PC servers. SuperMicro even ventures on normal desktop boards with some success. The usual desktop suspects Asus, ASrock, Gigabyte & MSI try hard to get into the server market segment but they have very few models to threaten the two server giants.
So, for Thunderbolt and servers, to my knowledge, there are zero Epyc boards with TB3, the few that have it are all Intel based. Just like: https://ftp.supermicro.org.cn/products/nfo/Thunderbolt.cfm
Feel free to add or correct if you know something else
Cheers

 

Last edited: Dec 12, 2020

@taskforce Incredibly informative as always. If one wants to assemble a beast of a computer it starts with Supermicro or Tyan motherboard.

This Thunderbolt thingie is bugging the hell out of me. It doesn't seem like USB4 will make it any easier for TB interface owners because it still needs an Intel chip to work over USB4. But on the bright side, the connector will be the same... but on the dark side this will make it even more complicated for TB users. Some companies will certainly put it in small lettering and with an asterisk somewhere that their USB4 doesn't support Thunderbolt. I've already "encountered" a Dell laptop like that.

 

Well, you're right but even for most professionals this is outside the bugdet.

 

Well, even with "only" [as opposed to 1TB] 64 or 128GB of RAM, a RAM disk could still be very useful. It depends on how much RAM you're using when making music. If you're using up to like 50% of RAM, why not making a RAMdisk and putting something on it that you want to access really quickly? Temp folder, peak files, even VST plugins or smaller sample banks. On the other hand, M2/SSDs have become so affordable, much more affordable than RAM, but RAMdisk is unbeatable when it comes to speed.

Well, it is good to know one has a choice of options. It's up to you to decide which ones to use.

 

Why does everything have to devolve into cock measuring?

Yes the board I mentioned is PCIe 3.0 not 4.0. All that needed to be pointed out. It does however have full Thunderbolt 3 support via an TR header just like the Intel boards that offer the same feature.

I was working mainly from memory going back to late August & early September. The board with PCIe 4.0 from ASROCK Rack is the
ROMED6U-2L2T. Have been holding off for a rumored update or, new replacement for the EPYCD8-2T.

At this late date most board maker ares trying to hold off until the release of the new EPYC series next quarter.

 

The board I was actually thinking of. Found it in the build notes archive.
ROMED8-2T

ASRock Thunderbolt 3 AIC
https://www.asrock.com/mb/spec/product.asp?Model=Thunderbolt 3 AIC

 

Last edited: Dec 12, 2020

Well, i 've never been impolite to you and it saddens me to see such a reaction. Anyway my question was legit, i was intrigued by your Thunderbolt mention and going through the manuals, the ROME8-2T has a TB3 AIC header. The EPYCD8-2T doesn't.
The dual 10gbit Intel X550-AT2 is also a very nice touch on the Rome8-2T. There is a small catch with the second pci-e slot - "PCIE2: Gen4 x16 link or Gen4x8 link+2x M.2+2x miniSASHD or no PCIE slot +2x OCulink+2xM.2+2x miniSASHD(by jumper) " but it's not really important. Of course all these feats take the mobo to a ~750 euro price, which tbh i don't find expensive for what it offers for a monster workstation build.

 

I mean that before loads of RAM is more affordable other things. But yeah, RAM disk are coo and I use them from time to time.
Also, for many uses the Windows cache does the job for you.

In fact, when I got 8MB RAM ages ago I ran that funny classic playful game from a RAM drive. "Leisure Suit Larry 2" I think it was.

 

Apologies if I came off a bit strong. Just making sure that we are all in check.

The Rome8-2T is the board I meant to reference not the EPYCD8-2T. Should have removed it from the collected build info to avoid mixups & confusion. The Rome8-2T is available around the same price & is the my current updated option if pricing normalizes after the holiday buying season.

Original MSRP $498.00. Some u.s. pricing as of December 13, 2020:
Newegg $578.00
GamePC $610.00
Amazon $639.99

Cheers & happy tracking!

 

Last edited: Dec 13, 2020

Why do we care about Thunderbolt so much here? It's just PCIe on a wire. You can get top tier PCIe stuff from RME, or even better, go into networked audio and have something that's actually next-gen stuff, just like the guys in FOH started years ago. If you're talking about server boards with Thunderbolt, it's likely not a laptop, so it's not like you need your interface to be a portable one - hence no need for Thunderbolt. It'd be a much smarter use of the hardware to pair it with either a PCIe card (RME RayDAT comes to mind) or go with Dante (since you likely have a very capable NIC onboard) and some digital snakes.

 

Not everyone has a need for the features offered in modern motherboards used in desktop/tower workstations/servers.
The Mac G5 series with dual cpu server boards were the standard for Pro Tools. On the Windows PC side there were HP & Lenovo. I have an Pro Tools approved Lenovo S30 Workstation/Server that still performs well even with the latest DAWs.

Looking to build a more modern replacement at a reasonable cost. To replace my current system from HP or Lenovo, would cost twice what I could build myself while still not giving me everything I require.

Until USB 4.0 is standard in implementation, connection & availability, Thunderbolt3 , AVB, & Dante are the preferred connections for professional audio. AES-50 is another option that is open source, more affordable & faster than Dante. Each protocol has strengths & weakness.

Dante includes support for Thunderbolt, USB-C, Bluetooth & AVB. Why limit yourself to one standard? The live sound community from which most of our digital audio protocols derive are also beginning to look past Dante. This will most likely happen with Thunderbolt for the same reasons once USB 4.0 matures. Remember what happened to Apple Bus, IDE, SCSI?

Then there is the memory band width offered by quality ECC memory on 8 channels along with the option of ultra fast U.2 drives in raid or as single drive clusters.

Go to Lenovo website & configure this laptop for audio/video to see the cost of a Workstation laptop that covers you from stage to studio. It has Thunderbolt 3.

Lenovo ThinkPad P17 Mobile Workstation

 

Last edited: Dec 14, 2020

Agreed

If you need "Pro Tools approved", you're probably not the best informed in terms of what's out there. Hardware improves fast.

True, you're paying for someone to do the work for you, and you're getting a custom modified set of hardware that is a nightmare to fix or upgrade.

True. But Dante is a Layer 3 protocol, which allows you to use your existing router. Just plug both your PC and Dante-capable interface/converter to the router and you're ready to get going. AVB doesn't do that, and Thunderbolt 3 is not AoIP, it's the same old stuff as PCIe. Networked audio is where it's at. AES50 has no software driver, so you need to buy a AES50-capable card for your AES50 network to be seen in your DAW. Dante can do this with Dante Virtual Soundcard and the Ethernet port in your motherboard. AVB can't do this, either. This is why I recommended Dante. It's not a better solution (for home studio/workstation use) if it requires you to purchase additional $2000 hardware and set up a separate network.

USB-C is a connector, not a standard. It means nothing but the shape of the plug. It can be USB 2.0, it can be Thunderbolt, it can be just a charging port. What matters is the hardware after the connector. That's like saying your guitar includes support for 1/4" jacks.

Thunderbolt has many revisions and is basically PCIe. It has no advantages over PCIe except it's outside the computer.

Bluetooth (like any low-power consumer-grade wireless) is not suitable for realtime audio at all.

AVB requires a separate network, and AVB-specific interface. Dante works with the Ethernet port you already have, and you can get a separate NIC and router for it if you want it. You don't have to purchase it right away.

Neither of these options is as good as wired 1000BASE-T Ethernet you already have, the switch you already have and just a interface capable of talking over Dante - especially if you're not into spending $2000 on a specific ecosystem.

Because the live sound community doesn't care as there is no existing installation to factor in. They can use whatever their mixer supports and call it a day. For a home workstation, getting $2000 worth of interfaces and networking equipment vs getting a $600 interface that plugs into your router and works pretty much the same - is an important difference.

This has nothing to do with networked audio, but ECC memory is overkill for audio and you totally don't need it. You don't need 8 channels of memory, either. I was perfectly fine with a single 16GB stick on my desktop, and once upgraded to 64GB in dual channel, I notice no apparent difference in speed. In memory available and scope of work I can do, yes, but not in speed.
U.2 is just a connector for PCIe x4. Its only advantage is the controller in your SSD can be faster than equivalent M.2, but the connection itself is the same.

"Workstation laptop" was never a good value and will probably never be. Unless:
- it has to be a laptop because you're mixing the next Pirates of Caribbean movie on a train, and you absolutely must do it on your train in an hour
- you're willing to purchase inferior hardware for a price premium
- you're okay with purchasing outdated hardware and not being able to upgrade in in 2-3 years
- you're also okay with a big power brick which kind of negates the benefit of a portable laptop
Once you go into it, fully aware it would be way better and cheaper to get a desktop, and yet you really insist it *must* be a laptop because XYZ and you'll be doing machine learning and fluid simulations on your train, then you *might* consider getting one. For all other purposes, laptops are overpriced garbage compared to a desktop. Especially in workstation workloads, and especially considering we're talking about high-end networked audio solutions here.

 

Last edited: Dec 15, 2020

all current AoIP solutions are imperfect in some way, none of them being really suitable or worthy for home studio (where single-path short-distance connections can be comfortably done using software-independent tech like ADAT or MADI in bigger channel count),

I'd argue none of those AoIP techs should be used on a "shared" LAN - for security and performance/bandwidth reasons - in which case having second NIC in a computer is no less obstacle than dedicated audio interface right away,

Dante thanks to running in Layer 3 is ignored by greennet switches powersaving features (which majority of people have) and crashes because of that,
also Dante being proprietary requires dedicated PCIe interface for lowest latencies (plus another NIC for Dante network management/control), or separately purchased license for any generic NIC,
AVB on the other hand doesn't require any license for computer NIC, afaik on MacOS it's a plug&play experience in that regard

AoIP is undoubtedly revolutionary step in audio world (analog->digital->IP) but as of now is not standardized enough to be troublefree experience, therefore I would not recommend it for uses of home studios and moderate studios where advantages of AoIP would not be really beneficial

 

It doesn't do it in Windows, because stupid Ms have their priorities up their ass and are actually spoiling all the fun of building custom systems because of things like this or no aggregation capability with connected audio interfaces and no native low latency audio driver either. They keep updating Win10 with useless features nobody cares about and they dare name their os professional. Instead of making it more simple for users and sys builders to use pro devices out of the box they keep complicating things further and further.
With macOs (which i kinda hate lately lol) you get native support for AVB, just connect your AVB device straight to the comp or via router, as my mate here said:

The irony of it all is Ms want so bad to become Apple yet they keep making all the wrong decisions for their os and in regards of professional protocols support, truth be told, they still lag years behind. Sorry bout the rant heh.
Cheers

 

Standard as a connection type that as you pointed out, can also be used to connect Thunderbolt 3.

USB4 is a USB system specified in the USB4 specification which was released in version 1.0 on 29 August 2019 by USB Implementers Forum.[1]

In contrast to prior USB protocol standards, USB4 requires USB-C connectors and for power delivery it requires support of USB PD. In contrast to USB 3.2, it allows tunneling of DisplayPort and PCI Express. The architecture defines a method to share a single high-speed link with multiple end device types dynamically that best serves the transfer of data by type and application. USB4 products must support 20 Gbit/s throughput and can support 40 Gbit/s throughput, but due to tunneling even nominal 20 Gbit/s can result in higher effective data rates in USB4, compared to USB 3.2, when sending mixed data.

The USB4 specification is based on the Thunderbolt 3 protocol specification.[2] Support of interoperability with Thunderbolt 3 products is optional for USB4 hosts and USB4 peripheral devices and required for USB4 hubs on its downward facing ports and for USB4-based docks on its downward and upward facing ports.

Notice the mention of USB protocol standards above (taken from a Wikipedia article).

The official USB Standards can be found here.

 

You obviously have a fixed view of your 3 foot world. Having lived & worked all over as a musician, live sound engineer & studio engineer, my own take how techonology has worked & evolved is different than yours.

If you look at any high end custom pro level computer builders, they all denote what software is validated to run on those systems.
Knowing how ECC memory works with EPYC & Xeon cpus using 4 to 8 channels, you have an understanding of buffering, bandwidth & improved consistent throughput.

The Lenovo laptop is an example of a professional workstation that can be used in many different scenarios.

As for Dante, AVB, AES-50, etc...there will a whittled down choice at some stage. Dante is becoming to expensive for hardware & licensing compared to the newer alternatives. Some of which use open source licenses.

Not everyone needs a top of the line Mac or PC. Just something adequate. Others need that little bit more. Others still, need something that chews threw any workload and, will do so into the foreseeable future.

 

Last edited: Dec 18, 2020

Again. USB-C is just the connector. It can have just two wires inside and be just a power cable, or have 4 and be a USB 2.0 cable, or be a 3.0 5Gbps cable, or a 10Gbps one, or a 10Gbps and carry power and display all in one. It's not that Dante "supports" USB-C, it's about the protocol - USB 3.X Gen Y (whatever the retrospectively changed name of the day is). I'ts true, Thunderbolt 3 has been included into USB4. And this is the first time Thunderbolt has anything to do with USB other than the C connector. That said,

means you're not likely to see Thunderbolt any time soon, even on USB4-capable devices. It's an added cost that most manufacturers will skip.

The only added value of high end custom pro level computer builders is you don't have to do the job of selecting the best hardware and testing it with the software you're using. It's not a requirement to have your computer "validated" if you can test it yourself, and you can often get a system that's better than the validated one on your own. Provided you know what you're doing and spend the time testing and tweaking as needed. The "validated" part means that someone spent time testing and being responsible for the fact that it has to work for you, nothing more. This is a concern for commercial facilities who'd rather throw money at a problem rather than spend time troubleshooting, but for a high-end home studio it's not like you can't get your system "as good as the pros do it". You totally can, and you probably should do it yourself in that case.

Well, there's no such thing as "EEC" memory, did you mean ECC? I'm yet to hear a vocal recording that's been ruined because of a single bit flip in the RAM, or because it was not registered RAM. Actually, every Mac Pro before 2013 trashcan was not using ECC, and nobody complained about it being unusable in professional workloads.

Yeah, provided you really need a laptop and you really need expensive GPU as well.

Very much so. Not like the pro builders have monopoly for "something that chews through any workload and will do so into the foreseeable future" though.