https://www.waves.com/1lib/pdf/plugins/cla-2a-compressor-limiter.pdf [section 1.3]
https://www.waves.com/1lib/pdf/plugins/cla-76-compressor-limiter.pdf [section 1.3]


Here is a page from UAD manual. ( http://media.uaudio.com/support/liverack/UAD_Plug-Ins_Manual-v942-171110.pdf )

 

Yes it is necessary for the plugins to take levels in it's equation.
Lets take some examples. have a no nonsense stock compressor. you set it's threshold to -12dbfs.
now you feed it your mix. your mix comes in hot at -1dbfs. compressor is working hard.
you level your mix down to -20dbfs. compressor ain't working at all (that lazy bitch).
ok, in this example it doesn't matter much, because we can set the threshold wherever we want it.
But other plugins are working differently. Tape emulation is something like that. sure most
of those plugins have some input level dial and an output level dial, but that again would be
gain staging.

 

Had to stir up controversy. I have a real problem with melodyne but it was overlooked

 

Nope, that's why I said 'So far I haven't come across any plugin where this was really necessary'.

 

yeah a lot analog emus dont want -18dbfs
--
but ok waves and uad emu's do!

 

I'll try to keep it short.

Well, yes, that's me - for instance. I never heard of such a rule. You may like to enlighten us?

Like those from Waves, Plugin Alliance or Acustica Audio? I tried a bunch of them, still my experience stands.

Err, wrong. You want a proof? Here you go:

Spoiler

Oh, and I tried several other VU meters, have a guess if the results differed.

You make like to discuss this matter with one of the following :
European & UK calibration for Post & Film is −18 dBFS = 0 VU
American Post: −20 dBFS = 0 VU
Orchestral −18 dBFS = 0 VU
Rock and / or Radio −16, or −14, or −12 dBFS = 0 VU
Even Hornet says about 'Da Beast' VU Meter MK4 has a calibration setting that will allow you to set the 0VU point to the best level for your A/D converters (by default is set to -18dBFS...).'

You see 'RMS' somewhere in there? No? Me neither, guess why.

XdBFS = YVU is a calibration (and it's in the nature of a calibration that you can choose its values freely), it was made for hardware, for broadcasting.
It wasn't meant to be applied to plugins and therefore it is technically not necessary.

Correct, surprisingly, that's why I never said this.

Err, right, the [cough] sweet spot. You may have a look at this:

Spoiler: -18dB Sweet Spot Myth CLA-2A

I'll exlplain what you see.
The first CLA-2A is fed with a signal with 0VU (please note that the meter is a digital peak meter, so it shows 0 at 0dBFS peak).
The second is fed with the same signal round about 9dB higher and phase inverted.
This results in peak of -69,6dB and an RMS of -82,1dB, both FS - just for the books.
Means, no one is able to hear the difference because these values are below the signal.

 

It is not a rule, as all converters and analog processors react slightly differently. But for most devices and especially in mastering -12dbFS as send level is a good guideline, where many analog devices react balanced. For individual instrument tracks it is different.

 

so why do plugins saturate i differently at differen't levels. isn't the very idea of an input gain directly related to this concept?

 

nowadays, LUFS-based "loudness" gainstaging is quickest way to go in early mixing stages

 

just use your ears, and balance it. best method

 

If I'm right OP and for sure I am talking about pure ITB production.

 

Ah, I see, maybe there's a misinterpretation about what I said and what not.
I did not say gain staging doesn't work (in fact I said I'm doing peak gain staging), I did not say input levels don't matter, I said I've never gain staged (to any specific value VU, dBFS RMS or dBFS peak per se) because it wasn't necessary. That does not mean I don't pay attention to a plugin's in- or output.

 

Exactly! It's not a hard concept to understand.
I can't for the life of me understand how some people don't get this. I.E. To work within the boundaries of something.
It's digital. Maybe some are pushing/'hotting' at the wrong stages.

 

Hi, I came across this same video as well as I've been focusing on improving my mixing. Even though I always had limiters on my master, sometimes two limiters so one limiter wouldn't have to work as hard. My mixes weren't even that loud as I'm getting them now, but my mix would sound good on my A7x monitors but when ever I put the mix in my car or on smaller speakers it would always distort. Just this rattling horrible sound. I was starting to think it was FL Studio! I don't even think I was using analogue modeled plugins like I do now. Until I started doing it like this video with kick around -12db to set my highest peak and now I don't get the distortion problem I had for a long, long time. It was putting me off on even making music!
I don't know why it works for me. Or the science but I wish I had seen that video a long time ago. I'm just getting back into making music now, I stopped a few times over the years as my mixes always sucked! I'm still learning as much as I can about mixing before I upload anything, but already they are sounding a 100x better. I've watched a lot of mixing videos since that video but I don't think any had this simple gain staging in them. So you can see how much I appreciate that video as I'm able to make music again.

 

I may have wrote it in an improper way, but VU meters don't tell us about the Peak value. If any of your VU meters tell you Peak value, then just discard that VU meter completly.
So 0 VU is almost -18 dBFS RMS and not -18 dBFS peak when we calibrate 0 VU to -18dBFS.
Technically, 0 VU is -18dBFS RMS and not -18dBFS peak, when we calibrate 0 VU to -18 dBFS. This is what I meant.
VU meters do not tell us peak and instead tell us about average and this why BBC came up with PPM in the first place.

Below is the proof how we may have encountered a misunderstanding.

 

Last edited: Nov 27, 2020

Oh Jesus.
The first VU meter in my pic is set to VU (at -18, top left corner, reference level).
The second VU meter is set to Peak (ref level 0, so it does show the digital peak on purpose! It's an option for the meter, it's free, try it yourself).
The third is set to RMS (ref level 0).
Accordingly the Reaper Mixer Master shows a peak of -18 and an RMS of -21 (forget about the 0,1)!

The signal is, according to the specs, a sine wave with -18dB FS peak!

I see no room for any misunderstanding.

And BTW, there is no straight conversion from VU to dB FS, that's why it's called calibration.

 

Last edited: Nov 27, 2020

There is no rule. Only certain advices.
Also, the -12 comes from an idea of implementing K-12 System (Bob Katz's).
But I use VU MK4 while producing and set all the channel's input level to -18 dBFS RMS (0 VU) and then use analog emulations and then use the fader.
While balancing, I put LU MK2 as the last plugin and set all channel to -23 LUFS (No reason for this specific number, I just chose the Broadcast recommended number) so, every channel is at equal loudness and then I use the fader to balance them. As every channel, prior to fader, is equally loud, it becomes a less tedious job to do the Anchor style mixing.

VU meter set to Peak?
Well, I rest my case here.
Also, I stand with my point.
If any of your VU meters tell you Peak value, then just discard that VU meter completly.


The very reason, PPM meters appeared in broadcast stations, more importantly, BBC, because, VU METERS DO NOT AND CANNOT TELL THE PEAK LEVELS. Do read about actual VU meters and not some bad emulation of VU meters.

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-whats-difference-between-ppm-and-vu-meters

A VU meter's display is influenced by both the amplitude and duration of the applied signal. With a steady sine-wave signal applied to the input, a VU meter gives an accurate reading of the RMS (root-mean-square, or average) signal voltage. However, with more complex musical or speech signals the meter will typically under-read, and a sustained sound will produce a significantly higher indication than a brief transient signal, even if both have the same peak voltage. In theory, a VU meter should respond to both the positive and negative halves of the input audio signal, but the cheapest implementations sometimes only measure one half of the waveform, and so can provide different readings with asymmetrical signals compared to full VU meters.
The reference level indication is 0VU, but the audio level required to achieve that could be whatever the user wished. The original SVI implementation included an adjustable attenuator to accommodate any standard operating level up to +24dBu (US broadcasters still use nominal reference levels of +8dBu). Modern VU meters usually omit the user-adjustable attenuator and are typically set to give a 0VU indication for an input level of either 0dBu or +4dBu. The latter is the most common 'pro standard', but a lot of manufacturers use the former alignment, including Mackie. In general, then, the SVI or VU meter tends to show the average signal voltage, and gives a reasonable indication of perceived loudness.​

I never said that.
0 VU was always an element to calibrate even in analog days, because even in those days, 0 VU could be calibrated to any dBu values, as per users choice.
Modern VU meters usually omit the user-adjustable attenuator and are typically set to give a 0VU indication for an input level of either 0dBu or +4dBu. The latter is the most common 'pro standard', but a lot of manufacturers use the former alignment, including Mackie.

But any ways, no point in discussing this any further.
I do not want to show any disrespect to anyone, but do read stuffs and do learn and and know about actual things, not some bad emulations. ( example, of a VU plugin).

 

Last edited: Nov 27, 2020

vs

Ok, I'll give it a last try to explain you two simple things:

1. What you can see in the pic I posted are not VU meters. It's an graphical interface based on 0s and 1s, it's a display, it's virtual, it's not a thing, it's not real. It could show anything the developer wants to while still looking like a VU meter. VU, dB FS, the actual time or the weather forecast (BTW, most of the Waves meters like in the CLAs are peak meters!).
   It could look like a banana, an orange or my Grandma's ass (in the last case I highly recommend a scale below 100%) and still have a needle moving over any scale showing whatever the developer decided to (e. g. VU).
   So please, stop saying bullshit like 'discard that VU meter' just because you don't understand the principles of features. Peak, RMS and VU are just three options out of seven which this display can show.
2. Make a veery simple experiment, won't take more than three minutes, even if you're slow.
   Create, according to the specs, a sinewave, set its peak to -18dB FS and run it through a VU meter calibrated to -18.
   Now have a guess what this VU meter will show. Spoiler alert: 0VU.

As I said, there's no room for (misinterpretation or) misunderstanding.

 

Last edited: Nov 28, 2020

My bad.
You are correct man.
Have a good day.

 

Last edited: Nov 28, 2020

Here is the issue.
Different manufactures do it very differently.
I am attaching three Photos.
Check this.
The confusion arises because of the input and output VU of several Plugins.