Exorbitant Sizes of Sample Libraries

Discussion in 'samples' started by minozheros, Jul 10, 2020.

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Do you think sample libraries really have to be that big?

Poll closed Jul 17, 2020.
  1. Yes

    5 vote(s)
    7.9%
  2. No

    36 vote(s)
    57.1%
  3. Just stop complaining and buy a bigger harddrive

    22 vote(s)
    34.9%
  1. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    Well, in the physical modelling case I was talking about big prices :winker: :wink:
     
  2. orbitbooster

    orbitbooster Audiosexual

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    Yes, that is the downside, but I think that it will be justified by the coding effort, much deeper than sample libraries one.
    Moreover, I challenge everyone to make such a virtual violin virtuosity as the following with a sample library!:rofl:

     
  3. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    Sure. My criticism is about marketing strategies which relates to the topic and applies to many more.
    Obviously I'd love to see more physical modelling or any technology that improves current ones for that matter.
    OMG.. MY EARS ARE BLEEDINGGGGARGHH... :rofl:
     
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  4. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

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    I think this would greatly benefit from [alt]+[del]. :yes: :rofl:
     
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  5. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    Or you can play it through 1000W speakers and it will kill even the CoVid
     
  6. davea

    davea Platinum Record

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    All this will be in the balance of limiting the environmental footprint of the design and deployment of digital networks and infrastructures.
    It rubs shoulders with other lines of thought, such as limitations on the level of preloading of resources in web browsers (which occurs in the background by anticipating the browsing of the Internet user, to present pages to him more quickly), and reduction of the energy consumption of the devices.
     
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  7. rah

    rah Ultrasonic

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    you're forgetting the most important factor in the person.. who is currently triggered by recent or historical events.. :bleh:
     
  8. phloopy

    phloopy Audiosexual

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    " Exorbitant Sizes of Sample Libraries".

    Good things takes time, space and patience @minozheros :wink:

    Whats big today will be small tomorrow etc etc....... we might see outstanding small VSTi´s in the future that can do the same and more than a 100 Gb Kontakt library today - that´s life.
     
  9. twoheart

    twoheart Audiosexual

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    Another fact you must consider is, that once sold, an acustical modeling instrument lasts almost forever, while you can sample a new library almost every month. You can sell hundereds of different libraries, but there are only a given number of instruments to model, if you do it right. And the SWAM people did it right. They've practically dug their own grave by this business model. They should have considered a an abonnement system like Adobe.

    I don't think it will go this way forever. Moore's law is already dead for CPUs and for hard drives/SSD the density of information per volume is also physically limited. Once this physical limit is reached for hard disks (I think not so far away), they don't get bigger in memory size and prices won't drop significantly.
    When I bought my last HD drives doubling the size of my NAS after 5 years, the price was 30% higher than before. The time I did it before, Moore's law was still in charge (5 year rythm for HDs).

    The only way I can imagine the increase would work longer is by downloading a lib just in time, just the chuncs needed, not by storing the whole lib locally.
     
  10. orbitbooster

    orbitbooster Audiosexual

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    Target hit.

    Target hit.
    And you know, we could have been in a situation where SWAM was just a never-to-be-released project, just seen in some Science and Tech Channel documentary.
    They chose differently, and for that, Chapeau.

    Target hit (and btw, even if we could push, we would stop at the Planck lenght:rofl:).
    Moreover, prices window is always the same no matter how advanced is tech, I can't buy now, let's say, a 486, cause I should pay it 50cents, well outside the market boundary.


    Target hit.
    A kind of On Demand service, that would be the most logical thing, then if you want the whole bunch, you take it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
  11. Xupito

    Xupito Audiosexual

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    And loading patches in Kontakt :rofl:. Just joking, I know those tendencies too well because of work. Lazy loading that and that jazz. It's funny because current Web frameworks are still very bloated. Except Vue which was created exactly for that reason.

    Good point, especially the part about number of instruments. My criticism is precisely about adding unnecessary features/quantity. Look how many versions has PianoTeq, but it seems they're worthy. When they aren't they will probably add more anyway. Or Steven Slate will buy them and do it HIMself :rofl:

    Anyways, physical modelling is still green. I haven't tried SWAM, but what I gathered is that they nailed a couple of instruments but not so much the others. AFAIK the only one that's almost perfect is PianoTeq. ModoBass almost there along with a couple of SWAM plugins perhaps.
    Good point again, but both CPU's and Drives keep being faster/bigger. Perhaps linearly and not exponentially, but Moore's law died several years ago now, very roughly with the first 4 core CPUs. If technology doesn't improve we will get to that point, but not in the near future.
     
  12. lovebeats

    lovebeats Ultrasonic

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    yes they go bigger and bigger especially kontakt libs, time to get a 8TB drive
     
  13. twoheart

    twoheart Audiosexual

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    Target hit, to use your words :bow:

    Modern HDs already make use of quantum effects e.g. tunneling.
    A few days ago I read about a new technology called spin capacitor where they use the spin of electrons to store information for some time. In the article the spin capacitor (a little early) was praised as the HDs successor. I find the apparatus a little big and the power consumption a little high at the moment but ... as time goes by :rofl: Spin capacitor
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
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  14. lancexx

    lancexx Producer

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    I feel the larger issue with high volume libraries is, how much of it are you really using? The ROMpler I enjoyed the most since original nexus was the vintage synth collection from ikmultimedia, it ran on the sampletank engine and could used within it as well but I did enjoy the unique UIs from a design and visual-memory classification perspective. The UIs were an obvious attempts at copying the hardware styling but they did a good job of helping you identify what kind of sounds you can expect to make from those specific sets of multisampled sounds. Eventually the differences between models started to blur when I was applying them to writing parts and despite the many unique synths the varying tonal characteristics of an analog saw tooth or square wave didn't impact my music in a way 70 gigs of samples made me think it was. Yes I'm aware of the differences between the hardware synths used and a general knowledge of their history, the qualities only certain mono synths from the late 70s seem to possess. However, when attempting to apply the sampled synth to my music I noticed I was going back to the same patches consistently and ignoring entire large parts of the library. How many versions of a moog saw do you really need? The biggest advantage I experienced was using those old mono synths in poly mode, that was pretty incredible at first but I ran into the same issue over and over. There was no way I was using the entire library as most of it was filler content anyway once you stripped away the fx attached to every preset. There is value in having tiny modulation differences in the oscillators + capturing tonal drift but I was failing to spot the impact in my music. For what its worth I thought the library itself sounded incredible and the range of sounds was vast, nearly everything is usable in a meaningful context even if I wasn't reaching for them for my own productions. Even the digital/fm stand out from any other library I've ever used (they might be best part because compared to the roland emulations they are on a much higher tier). My biggest gripe with the library was the massive amount of junk 303 samples, the whole value of the original unit is in the live modulation and knob twirling but with static samples you can only go so far and its a lot less far than the roland emulation would take you. But we are discussing the size of the library itself so I'm of the opinion that while yes you may have a massive library at your disposal there is likely no way you can make use of even most of it. You could make the argument that I'm not a power user taking advantage of advanced layering features but that shouldn't be a metric for every single musician to be judged with.
     
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  15. kato

    kato Newbie

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    20 - 30G is my upper limit.
    I can accomplish everything you want with libraries under 20G. Or at least I have yet to find something massive that was so compelling I had to download it.
     
  16. tori

    tori Platinum Record

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    I never really used very big libraries... But the Jade Orchestra is an exception because I always wanted a far east instruments library where all instruments are in the same place, after pianoteq my fav release of the year.

    And does it really makes a difference if you load 20 small kontakt libraries instead one bigger? Maybe even the same stuff like "sensitive strings" from one company and "more sensitive strings" from the other? Or 20gb instruments from 5 companys... But an all in one 100gb Library is "exorbitant". The Streznov Library is a bad example I think, because it's really unique. I would understand if it's about Hans Zimmer Pianos, thats extremely exorbitant.

    I really hope more stuff gets modelled, SWAM and pianoteq are really good, but modelling seems just too expensive... I think it will take at least 20 year before modelling is more popular than sampling.
     
  17. minozheros

    minozheros Kapellmeister

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    As the example triggered the question it does not really make that much of a difference if it is a good or a bad example but you are right size alone is not sufficient as a good criteria. The smallest library that can't do anything will be even more useless than the biggest one that can do at least one thing.

    I think sampling will always be more common than modelling because it does not make much sense to model everything, whereas sampling everything is a more valid option if you look at the time and effort you have to put into it to get a (decent) result.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  18. orbitbooster

    orbitbooster Audiosexual

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    I only half agree.
    It's right that it does not make much sense in modelling everything, let's say, a barking dog, for which will be easier sampling.

    But for traditional and classic instruments, indeed it does.

    So I want to make a (kown to me) list of companies coding modelled or at least partially modelled instruments.

    Arturia
    Keyboard collection
    Synth collection

    4Front
    Truepianos

    IK Multimedia
    Modo Bass
    Modo Drums

    Native Instruments
    Prism (Reaktor) (Percussions)

    Audio Modeling SWAM (SOLO only)
    Woodwinds
    Brass
    Strings

    Image Line
    Sakura (Strings)
    (Maybe) Ogun (Percussions)

    Modartt Pianoteq
    Pianos
    Keyboards
    Percussions

    Advanced Applied Acoustics
    Chromaphone (Percussions)
    String Studio
    Ultra Analog (Synths)
    Lounge Lizard (Electric piano)

    Aly JamsLab
    VSDS-X (Simmons SDSV Drums)

    Xhun
    Iron Axe (Electric guitar)


    I'm sure there are many others, but this is a good starter.

    Add yours.
     
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  19. twoheart

    twoheart Audiosexual

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    I suspect the sales for their solo instruments are already going down. ATM the're offering quite massive discounts.
    Their old prices were not really for the mass market and ppl who love these instruments or have had spare money already bought.
    The next thing we'll see will be ensembles. (And then?)
    But as customers have noticed the discounts after only a few months (of e.g. Solo Brass), people will most likely wait for the rebates to come.
    Quite dangerous business model, a bit like working in a deflation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  20. minozheros

    minozheros Kapellmeister

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    There is not only the barking dog, you forgot about the barking cat and the laughing rhino or whatever stupid sound you can imagine. I just think the number of instruments is small in comparison to all the sounds that get recorded. And for every modeled instrument there will be countless people that don't want to use it because they want something more unique so they will still sample whatever instrument they want to use instead.

    I do think modeling should and probably will be more accurate than sampling because it is "much easier" to create nuances using functions than capturing every single one of them through sampling.

    I paid around 300€ for the first CD-writer i bought, now you pay 30€ for the dvd version and 70€ for a blueray version. I guess it is just the way it goes. The good thing about starting off with a high price is that you can always go down if you realize that you don't attract as many customers anymore. The bad thing is that a lot of people might be pissed because they just paid twice as much a few months or even days ago than everybody else.
     
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