What do you do when your track goes on -20 treshold but yet it hasnt enough loudness (LUFS), is it ok to put another limiter after izotope, for example Fabfilter Pro L, that would be hierarchically.............

1. EQ
2. Izotope
3. Limiter

Do you use any other effects on master channel too?

 

Produce and mix for loudness. Don't master for loudness.

"Threshold"? What do you mean?
Learn gain-staging. Peak and loudness are two different things. Also learn the difference between the two.

Peak before mastering: You can export your mix at -20dBTP (which is quite a lot of headroom) and still have enough dynamics left to properly gain-stage and master your track. I would still reach for about ~6dB of headroom (-6dBTP) for your mix, prior to mastering.

Peak after mastering: To avoid clipping from ISP (intersample peaks) you can leave your master at -1dBTP if you are under -14LUFS and -2dBTP if you are louder than -14LUFS.

Loudness: All songs/tracks have different loudness. Classical music and folk music have lower loudness than dubstep and one minute punk songs. Streaming platforms use volume (and limiting, unfortunately) to find some middle-ground where you don't have to reach for the volume all the time. This is called loudness normalization. It's usually around -16 to -14LUFS. This doesn't mean you should target this value. Produce, mix and master to whatever loudness your music sounds good at. Then leave it up to streaming sites to set the value to reach their loudness standards.

 

Last edited: Apr 30, 2020

make a template for your DAW, set all faders to -10 to -12db which gives a better mix and headroom, i put t racks on the master to get an idea of the levels then adjust to taste

 

You don't understand how the LUFS chain is supposed to work. LUFS is not a peak level. If you make your song -20 LUFS, but your site plays at -15 LUFS, the site will turn it UP to -15. If you make your song -10 LUFS, but your site plays at -15 LUFS, the site will turn it DOWN to -15.

 

I am talking about Mastering process on master channel.
1. Many times my mixdown will be very low on volume, that even -20db on Izotope Ozone maximizer won't gain my LUFS more than -14 to -12.
2. Having this scenario, I asked is it okay to add one more maximizer (after first one), this time Pro L (or again it can be a new instance of Izotope Ozone), and gain even more to get -8 LUFS.

I know I can do it while mixing down, but sometimes it just happens, something leads me to have low mixdown, and it would be long time process to equally raise all faders on each single instrument correctly, synchronized, without losing global track sound as it was before moving shaders, in another words it would be mixdown from the start, and I am not the one that does mixdown after composing an track, but for me its same process, once I add instrument it is mixed this moment, adding next, mixing it, adding third, mixing it, so yeah, for me process of composing, producing is also process of mixdown.

So it would be....(post mix process, or mastering process)...
1. Final EQing
2. All the stuff with Ozone
3. Maximizing 1
4. Maximizing 2

It is you did not understand a word of what was being asked.

 

Have u tried it?
Does it give u the result you wanted?
If it does and u liked it... and that's it.

Why need more clarification from the people who try to help you to understand loudness concepts by its relation to a basic understanding of gain staging. And how streaming platform mechanism works.

It is you who do not understand and refuse to learn the long process and if you want it easy, then experiment it yourself, after all, there is no rule applied in art craftworks but bear in mind rejection is real for those who not meet the quality benchmark and sucks. And many had to face it before they made it.

So...

If you can't commit to learning a long process to succeed, hire someone to do it.

 

can you elaborate what you mean by "Izotope" ? Izotope is a brand that makes a lot of different plugins

 

So this is a large topic spanning several areas.
You have tracking pre production.
Then production.then engineering.
Then mastering.
This is how I would recommend approaching it.
Each area has a different goal in mind and a different approach and toolset.

When you start off with tracking and preproduction you want to make sure you have plenty of headroom ( your signal strength is no where approaching clipping in any form )
Yet at the same time you want it strong enough .
Your drums or transient driven sounds tracks and groups have the most energy on the meters at this stage .so it depends what type of track or group buss it is . But you want to track with enough signal to noise ratio .

Next up after tracking you want to gain stage .
You put preamps on tracks or groups which need it in order to gain stage and get good signal to noise ratio. You always want to start out capturing the correct signal as much as possible. Get it right early on is going give you best result in the end.
So now you tracked and gain stayed
( Now you have a good signal for each layer
What you want to do is build up the harmonic character correctly for your tracks and groups )
This can be done with analog modeling or analog gear. Transistor preamps, tube preamps , tape machine etc.
Think of it like this you have multiple dimensions to a audio track.the dimension of transient response. The dimension of frequency response .the dimension of width and depth .
So building your harmonic signature is dealing with the transient response dimension you do this first before fine tuning the frequency response .
Because you never want changes is eq or shelving to impact how how the track hits or it's clarity .
( Because eq smears the attack of a sound which has no harmonic foundation .)
This process is fattening and increasing apparent volume as well getting closer to final volume .
Once you have the transient dimension set, now you can adjust the frequency response dimension and the width and depth ( reverb delay any effects etc.)
This point you should be good apparent volume loudness per track and have no little bits of the sounds jumping out louder than rest .
Your ready transition to a mixdown.
After you bounce your mix you can transition into engineering then mastering.
The idea is to work the little bit at a time never drastically altering at any 1 stage after all you want the final result to feel and sound pretty natural not like you want each track layer to be like a vococoder from drastic altering it.
In engineering you are fine tuning the mix transients also fine tune frequency response as well as the width and depth of the whole mix .
At mastering your doing final touches getting ready for delivery this stage is about getting it sound the same on any system .
So notice this entire time I been speaking conceptually ? Not specifically.
This is because a recorded audio track is like a finger print. You cannot just follow a blind process every time .what you decide to do specifically is dependent on what that exact track or group buss needs.
You can use meters to find out whatthat unique finger print is like .volume meters frequency response spectrum analysis Meyer etc.
However the transient dimension in order to work with that unique Sonic finger print you need speakers or playback that is accurate and trained eats to learn to hear fine detail level not just the broad levels.
So some of these things requires equipment good enough to playback what is really there .then you need to develop critical listening to hear what is really there. Those things take time and effort to develop ..
It's what most people get wrong the most .

 

Last edited: May 1, 2020

mastering chain is diferent based on situation .. type of songs, tracks etc .. but generally it would be
Gain, EQ, Compression and Limiting

1. 
   

 

You have a weird situation there. People usually have a problem with too loud output on the master bus, and it's also weird that one limiter like iZotope Ozone cannot bring it to normal, standard levels nowadays of -16LUFS to -14LUFS with True Peaks around -6dBTP. Anyway, if you can't select all the tracks and bring their level up all at once like I can in Reaper, try using Airwindows Puregain before Ozone, although I still think your levels are just fine.

Putting a limiter on top of another limiter for loudness sounds just a bit funny to do, unless you use them very sparingly, both of them. Rather limit what, or if, you want to limit because it sounds better that way separate tracks or buses in the mix. I've heard of people doing that double limiter on the master bus thing, but it's usually an analogue outboard limiter that goes into a digital-plugin one as the last stage.

Examine a bit more what Baxter said... Bax knows what he's talking about, in spades.

 

Last edited: May 1, 2020

Of course you could do it, but depending on the bit depth, you could start loosing headroom (i.e. increasing noise).

Since this is obviously a problem with the mix, you should also fix it there and just master a track when it's ready for mastering.

 

Except that EQ should usually be put after the compressor, rather than before it. It depends, yes.

There's loads of good reading here: https://www.soundonsound.com/mixing-production

 

Don't do this, it's a stupid idea. Not only do your faders have more resolution around unity you're approaching it all wrong (this is post fader gain adjustment! ie AFTER any plug-ins inserted on the tracks). All you're doing is 'turning down' already too hot tracks/overdriven plugs but AFTER the damage is done (A fader is post everything on the track itself)

What you SHOULD be doing, if you want correct gain staging, is RECORD at around "-12 to -18 peaks" (in your terms) OR do it properly, get the Klanghelm VU meter (the most accurate one) and set it so 0 = -18, slap that in an insert on a recordable track, then gain your source at input (pre-amp or instrument) to hover around zero on the VU meter (doesn't matter if it goes up or down here and there it's just giving you a healthy signal in the range that most analog emulated plugs expect the signal).

Then during comping takes, you can adjust further using CLIP GAIN (or trim before other plugs) BEFORE hitting any plugs / faders. Then you should have very healthy recordings WITH faders at unity (0db - default). Now with every plug-in you add it's getting the ideal signal level, check AFTER a plug has been set up, checking the VU meter on the track (move it to the end of the stack so it can reveal what gain plugs are adding), then adjust the output gain on the plugs (or trim plug if no actual gain on the plug) to get you back to 'around zero' on the VU meter. Bypass the plug A/B and check VU meter is 'about the same' whether plug is active or not... whether it's 1 plug or 10 plugs that VU meter should be about the same on ALL tracks and ALL busses (except end of mix bus/master bus where you can go for it)

You carry this through.. on ALL busses up to the mix bus.. constantly rechecking and setting gain to keep it level.. GAIN STAGING!! at -18/zero on a VU meter. The exception to this is kick/snare and low level hats which will hit around -10 -5 on a VU meter.. a drum group should hit around -5 to -3 on a VU meter. Bass, Vox, Guitars, Synths busses (VU on first insert of bus) should be around zero again... THEN of course you can now 'mix' by turning down the subgroup/bus as needed (rather than individual tracks other than to get the balanced within that group), bass may end up as -4 to -6 on the group fader - after the group fader or if you don't use groups the individual fader going to the mix bus it's about the 'collective' of tracks not going past zero on a VU meter (on the mix bus) though it can go past of course but make it hover around zero.. +/- 3 at times is fine...

When everything gets to the mix bus, another VU meter there should be around zero with all tracks in (again set for -18).

NOW, during the mix bus plugs if any (and you should as even pros do now it's where we get our flavour and weight), you can still gainstage up till the final compression/saturation "mastering" plugs (inc limiter or as I prefer a clipper then into a limiter .. limiter not doing much at all). This will get you WAY loud enough (a DR of 6 or a LUFS of 7!! which is louder than you 'need' ) so then you can back off the clipper/limiter or sat/comp plugs until you're desired LUFS/ DR is reached... don't overthink it, fact is many pros are still mixing for 7 LUFS (CD) or 9 lufs, cos they can't/won't make seperate ones for streaming, it'll be fine if your mix is good and dynamic, just don't squash it down to 4/5 DR or something stupid.

That is how you gain stage properly. Get into the habit of doing it and you'll have more volume than you ever need AND your plugs will work great without harshness. Also working at 88.2k or 96k will help with many plugs sounding better without having to (spuriously) oversample during mixing.

Finally convert back to 44k/16bit with weiss saracon (THE BEST!) with -2 headroom... and you'll have the best mix of your life (if your MIX was actually any good). Don't convert in your DAW, it sucks vs Saracon or even isotope RX7 etc



edit: saw this after writing the above

go to 32 mins.. one of the world's best mastering engineers basically saying the same, they are NOT mastering to different LUFS formats for streaming etc. Just one master. "these ideas of levels (LUFS) are way over-stated"

 

Last edited: May 1, 2020

well in my case it works most of the time though ..

this tutorial might come handy

 

Again, it seems you still need to learn the fundamentals of gain-staging, peak vs. loudness and digital audio (dynamic range in 24bit, 32bit FP and 64bit FP internal processing, etc).

Yes, you can load a gain plugin on the first slot in your master chain, to up your -20dBTP (true peak) audio until you are at -6dBTP or so. BUT, you can more easily use the input gain on the first plugin you decide to use. Again: gain-staging.

You can also leave the master at unity and raise all faders equally much so that the master has about 6dB of headroom left. It's basically the same thing. (No, it's not that hard - you highlight your busses/groups and increase them equally much to maintain their mix/relationships/etc, if you have done your mixing correctly)

 

Last edited: May 1, 2020