So one of my issues sometimes is, during composition phase I just add instruments without directly adjusting levels and soon enough the master starts clipping.

Now I could add a limiter, and I did but after a while things add up so hard that the entire sound of each instrument is totally different without limiter and gone is kind of the "sound design".

So im curious how you guys handle your levels "pre-mixing-stage" after you searched for a sound and added a new track?

Also, when I keep levels of existing tracks low and I search through presets in a new instrument, each VST loads instantly with a volume that itself goes till -3db or so and as preview thats way too load when all other instruments are handled already, which is super annoying to adjust levels when I only search for a sound.

So yeah, probably basic question but still very interesting.

On of my ideas was to turn down the pre-gain to -16db (I picked up somewhere that -16db or -18 db is like the sweetspot most vst are designed for) and adjust presets so each track that I add starts with a -16db pre-gain :P

 

thats exactly my weakness in leveling /pre mix stage tracks
i know each genre has its own level
so i can add 1 question
what are your preferred set for kick/snare and preferred level/compression for trance and 80s style kick and snare ?

all answers are welcomed

 

Easy... Set everything low to start with and leave yourself plenty of headroom.

Manage the level being recorded or from your vst instruments, and adjust the level going in & out of every plugin in sequence to keep everything at a consistent 'safe' level all the way through your plugin chains.

Pre fader metering can be useful here.

Gain staging is not only essential to prevent clipping, but 'good' gain staging will get a better sound out of some of the vintage gear style emulated plugins. Many of these are modelled to work best at more conservative levels.

 

Make the clap/snare LOUD for more groove/emphasis in these type of music genres. (In let's say hardstyle or irish jigs you will do the opposite - emphasize 1 and 3, not 2 and 4.) Also, add some kind of interesting percussion - electronic hi-hat timbres are super overused at this point. I always add darabuka or congas, or something similar in the background in dance tracks.
There is no universal formula for db levels - it all depends on the relative levels of all your other tracks - if something is recorded quiet, better bring everything else down. I know edm producers that don't give a fuck about levels and produce with master limiter; it's all about tweaking it until it sound good for them.

 

Generally for me, my levels are kept in check by turning up the monitors. If it sounds loud and powerful at -20dBFS your ears will manage your levels. As things progress you'll start to turn your monitoring back down, this is why for me an external volume controller has always been essential.

This is also the reasons monitors get loud and can push high SPL cleanly.

Of course this is contrary to the colloquial belief that monitors get loud so that we can go deaf quickly and hear magical faerie whistling even in complete silence.

 

Turn the volume down.

You level at 0dB VU = -18 dBFS across the mixer, always, no exceptions. Loudness is for the mastering engineer. If you don't believe me look for a Pro ME who has before and after samples on their web page. See how mindblowing quiet a professional final mix usually is.

 

TL;DR! But as others have probably said, in the digital domain it's all backwards compared to the analogue days, and we don't need to run everything hot to get a good signal.
So I naturally start with all faders down at -16 or something (with virtual instruments) so that I never get to the stage you are talking about.
Pretty simple rule really.
And remember, you can always use a Gain plugin on the 2bus for a mix that is otherwise perfect, but too quiet.

 

Proper gain-staging and subtractive mixing. Have worked for 20 years for me. When I started I too fell into the trap of "additive mixing". Just turn (all) things down if the accumulated volume is too high, or start the project with the faders much lower.
32bit FP has 1680dB of dynamics, which is a shitload. No need to "fight the 0dBFS".

Look into Bob Katz K-metering system (k-14, k-12, etc) as a way to remove the "mixing towards a meter"-mentality/habit. It's quite liberating.

 

Last edited: Jan 30, 2020

+1 to this. A lot of plugs have a sweet spot for their input stage, and only there can you see what the plug is supposed to do/sound like.

 

the thing with the -18dbFS is exactly what I mean with sweetspot signal for plugins etc.
I even watched a guy comparing the sound of different popular plugs sending in -18dBFS and higher signals and comparing the results, with the conclusion that engineers design their plugs using signals that are -18dbFS (digital record) or 0 db VU (analog record) as thats kind of the industry standard.

So I am actually aware of the details :P

However, I am wondering how to setup that when I load a new instrument and check presets quickly, it automaticly is playing around -18db so I dont have to tweak around stuff before I even found my desired "base" sound for my bass, kick, lead etc...

Some samples like the good old vengeance are instantly peaking around 0dbFS, same goes if you load up a new instance of any synth and you go through the presets, which are way louder than the material you already have so its super annoying to setup a pre-gain when ever I wanna add something new.

Using the fader to quickly turn it down makes no sense as "depending which metric u use, logarithmic etc?" you have to turn it super low and then you cant make fine adjustments anymore

 

Last edited: Jan 30, 2020

As I said above, a Gain plugin is your friend. You could use it before the plugin you refer to. I don't think there is an easier way to do this like you want, it's just how it is?
Some of the plugins do have an input gain knob too.
I pretty much always mixdown too quiet, and add a Gain plugin first on the master/2bus.

 

This Q was on my mind for a long time and now that we are talking mix levels, I'll stick it in instead of opening a new thread:

What is this -6dB kick "rule", that you can find on 99% of mix templates??

Please don't just say that they are mostly made by morons.. I can believe that more than half of them are. But if I look at the "modern house" template (for simplicity) and take a James Wiltshire of Freemasons one (I always thought he knows what he's doing) there is always the kick at -6dB and then the bass group added and then the synths/hi-loops/fx.. til the whole mix is just kissing the 0db ceiling. No room for mastering eng, you are always nervous not to go over (and IF you are using the plugins that "like" that old school levels, you are fckd)

I understand that the kick is already fully processed, but ofc if you just tweak + an eq on a M1, you will go over. even the LUFs or whatever measurement of that kick would be around -11. I was sitting with a mix engineer many times and he started playing with kick/bass interplay peaking around -14db and ended the whole mix at around -6 to -4. And sometimes even pulled down, while working..

What you're all suggesting above is just what I think is the right way. So no need to convince me. I would just like to know why the vast majority of templates are set up that way..

 

the gain tool is pre fader...
you must do the pre work of savin plugin chain with gain tool before vst if you want save time...

 

I guess I just create an audio/mono/instrument track preset with a pre-gain set to -18db, later on I can adjust that for each track in gain stage phase and let every track peak at-18db and start mixing from there.

Is there a difference between setting up a pre-gain for each individual track and setting up only 1 pre-gain on the master?

 

during composition phase my meter might clips a whole lot,
but in my setup, the sound does not really change till it clips massive ammount of db.

technically, with float point internal processing it should not matter quality-wise.
however I would not recommend it, some plugins don't handle clipping well even if they have an input gain knob.

To tell the truth. I've been that Layzie or short of time that I did insert airwindows purest gain on flstudio's master channel to drop the volume,
mainly because in fl studio's workflow I need to map every sound manually too the mixer. But in the end, I rather do that and drag al faders down the same amount.

 

if this comes up I'll generally bring all instrument tracks/sends down and equal the difference using gain on master buss while working- give it a try, hope it helps

 

You need to set the input levels when you are hitting it the hardest. Bring the input up until it clips (red light), and then down until it stops red lighting. Sometimes this takes two people to do it right.

 

Work with a VU meter(s) set to -18db

 

Last edited: Jan 30, 2020

I put the main out on+6db and make Sure it’s never red. As per -18dbfs I only do that if said plugin isn’t sounding good. Sometimes it’s hitting the plugin harder or less than it should and it sounds perfect like that.
Fun stuff