All off topic comments cleared.
Again, if this thread is not of your interest simply go visit another one. There is a reason why forums are divided in sections, then thread titles.

 

Oly, bro, you're no fun. You behave like a moderator man...
oh wait...

 

You're right. Too much time has passed since I got my degree in musicology. Music must have changed completely as theory has since then. Very sorry about my ignorance.

 

The whole question is badly focused if you oppose "know theory" to "don't know theory".
There are a lot of intermediate positions that allow to take advantage of a bit of theory without spending most of your time studying it nor thinking of it.

Knowing chords, their names, their inversions and their relationship, is something basic and very useful for a composer.
Do you necessarily need to know all type of scales and modes? depending of the genres you are into, probably no.

But one thing is sure, by knowing more you cant have less.
People who think that they have been blocked by knowing theory, are wrong, knowledge cannot block anyone, only the way it is transmitted to you (and the way you take it) can. In this matter a very good pedagogue is important, and to be honest, I think that MMJ is not one, at least not what I see from him here. It's way too overwhelming and not enough playful.

I was teached classical music by a man of modern thinking, and he never told me that I had to follow the rules, he jut told me, this is the history, these are tools that composers before us, have created, we can do what ever we want with it.
Then much later I felt the need to know more, so I went to an American Jazz school and it was the same, no one told me that I had to play nor think jazz. they were teaching tools.

But I was making music before all this, and I already new the chords name, just speaking with other musicians, and I was able to compose without this knowledge. But At some points I was spending much more time to understand what my inspiration suggested, because I was unable to reproduce what I was hearing in my head.

So as I said at the beginning, theory is something you can take by steps or by pieces, depending of what you need. the opposition "theory VS no theory" is too reducing thinking.

 

Last edited: Dec 11, 2019

My favourite line
and I'd add the same is true for all the wonderful compositions history has given us to learn from and meddle with.

 

What?
First, emotions have nothing to do with music theory. That's related to cognitive sciences.
Second, music terms names - well, they are NOT very useful; I don't want to write novels in forum format: that's a topic for a whole book/study. If you know a little about non-Western music or tuning theory, you may guess why I say that.
Third - this type of music is a very recent phenomena and is not even taught until university level; it's basically the "wrong way" to play the notes (clusters, dissonant polychords, angular melodies with large leaps etc), if we follow practical music theory, governing commercial music.

 

It might be less rigid than you think.
My view is to be aware of what it is and the patterns it contains , ( that way if you want to break it you know what you are breaking and why )

 

Oh don't give me that.
You comments were portraying music theory, as something it is not and now you want to act like you specialize in that general area of music?
Ain't buying it .

 

I feel like the thread is very clearly formulated.
It's not theory or no theory , it's is music theory ( the way music works variety of music theory )
Valuble?

Answers are yes, no, possibly, and
( Whatcha mean way music works ain't no much thing (
I would consider your answer to be " possibly"
And every answer I have heard is captured in the poll.
Although some are talking about a different type of music theory like " rules to follow"
I not familiar with that kind of music theory .
I haven't run into that type yet.

For me , I am unaware how someone could understand all possibilities music itself contains in a situation without knowing it.
( They might have a bunch possibilities , but not 100 or 10,000 or whatever the answer really is in that situation.)
I consider music itself not my caricature of music.
I am interested in music itself as a whole .

 

Last edited: Dec 11, 2019

My view of it is music theory is a small part of music but for me nesesary , ( my goal is to understand every possibility in a situation to be able decide which is going to fit my vision in that moment )
Not everyone of course needs any of it at all depending what they are doing.
For example if you are a person that never tried to learn it wanted to learn it and you feel complelty happy with with you are doing you def don't need it .
Nobody should be forced to learn it or required .
It's difficult enough to where you got to really want to learn it for it to be valuble
( Not everyone wants to or needs to learn Japanese for example.)

 

Didn't formulate that well sorry. I'm not talking about what your threads are about in its content related to music theory (the "rules" you teach).
I was refering to the way you justify your teachings. The comparing with languages and when you say things like "the way music actually really works".
I don't think music is a language, contrary to what the cliché says. Try communicating concrete informations with music without lyrics. The traffic regulation signs make a better job at it, and it ain't a language by any means.
The fact that something has signs and a set of rules doesn't make it a language per say.
Humans have actually started communicating before inventing spoken native tongs, it's something that came much latter with the evolution of our brain, but the capacity to communicate was always there, it's probably why we did good with the whole food chain thingy.
Last but not least, the theory comes after the fact, it theorises a practice - well more like hundred of years of practices - theory in the musical field doesn't tell where to go next, it tells where others have been next before in similar situations. It gives you a road map of those past moves. And it will be enriched again and again by those who take side roads, if anyone else follows.

All in all I don't think you need to justify what you try to do with all those theories regarding "what music actually really is", that's where for me the rigidity lies. Your stuffs are usefull because theory is, most musicians recognize that much, and as long as what you offer is informed the rest is a bit some noise for me. Keep on doing what you do though. A lot of usefull information, when you get down to the meat.

 

Last edited: Dec 11, 2019

So with tonal language music .
Everything is about 3 categories .
Tonic Subdominant dominant
Relaxed, tense, very tense .
You are communicating those feelings and emotions in millions of ways that's a language .
In modal language there's no relaxed and tense only
" Unity "
In that language you are communicating millions of unique ways of " unification "
In atonal music you are freeing dissonance by making each of 12 notes democracy. Equal value
You are communicating order vs chaos , information vs destruction static.
So these are def languages with clear foundations .
There's no rules.
" Unless you feel that you cannot run in front of traffic because the RULES day you will destroy the body and die" that REALITY is a dictatorship .
Eating food to survive , destroying a living creature to put it's living cells in your stomach ( plant, or animal ) is a " rule".


I don't consider " reality" oppressing me with rules like it's a rule I cannot go 1 year no food or water .
I consider that " the way things work "
In other words there's " reality" and there's " fantasy "
I'm not oppressed by realities rules .
That gravity is an exact value is not oppressing me from flying .( It's fantasy that I think about flying to begin with (


Try communicating information without lyrics ?
Sure here I go .


DMin9/ C#7#5/ C6/

I just communicated a buildup of tension resolving victorious like the hero in a motion picture.

If I'm using a different language like based on UNITY

Go to the piano and do this .

In bass hand.

CFAD ...FCDA...ADFC...

In right hand higher octave play this.

GCEA...ADFB..BDGB...DGBE..EACG...


That is communicating UNITY
Or " unification "

So music is not a language in some generic or analogy sense . It's literally in exact demonstrable ways in specific contexts that music is a language ( several types languages (
Just as the language of color theory in art
The language of film making

 

Last edited: Dec 11, 2019

No MMJ there is no universal reception of tension, release from the audience. No secret message. Tension for some means sadness for others stress, etc. For others it's excitement. For the most informed, it means a classical chord prog with a classic resolve. From basic chord progressions 100000000 of songs have been made, all with different feelings, messages, etc. With nothing in common in its content just formaly the same chord progression.
There is no universal reception of any set of chords, or interval. It just doesn't exist. Those rules aren't there to be univoque in there meaning. Music isn't a dictatorship.

 

I can demonstrably step by step show you incorrect ( at least that's what I perceive but I think from realities perspective you are incorrect )

Break it into levels .
1 . Reality exists ( a environment )
2. Human beings with an auditory system exist .
( Same auditory system for everyone in the way that is significant on average or median .)
3.the consonance and dissonance is based on the human auditory system .
What do I mean?
The brain recognize patterns or it does not.
In every aspect of perception .
If no pattern you see or hear static .
Tension is a type pattern relaxed is type of pattern unity is type of pattern information chaos is types of patterns
When you hear C note that is pattern.
" Jealousy " is pattern " happiness "
Whatever can be named is distinct from a surrounding environment .

Just as a thin slice of steel cuts all human bodies.
( There's no human skin that cuts and destroys a thin slice of steel.)
Our brain deals with patterns or no patterns .
Music theory is a description of
" That which is the case "
It's not rules to follow .
Anymore than
Your veins are following a rule to circulate your blood.
( It's not that your viens could be circulating whiskey but their not because of a rule to follow)
Nobody born with viens that circulate bacon grease instead of blood .
I'm not giving you a rule right there.

 

Last edited: Dec 11, 2019

Ah, snap. Sorry. I thought it was obvious, but one can not read minds.

Music theory is awesome IMO. It's not only knowing the language by ear, but also by understanding it by sight, theory, science, math, psychoacoustics, semiotics, etc. When you learn music theory you can usually express yourself better. You can compose and arrange even the most "simple music" to sound better to the average person, who has no prior music theory knowledge. It also helps creative blocks, as it allows for different ways out of a creative rut. There are more ways to go than just waiting for "inspiration" to hit.

 

Sorry bro, but no. I'm not going there. I've already said that I think any decent musician should learn at least the basics of theory. It will help him, and probably save our ears. I've answered your topic.
If you point is in fact - as usual - to go on and on about your theories regarding "what music really is", the hidden truth behing theory, or god knows what else, well..... I'm out.

 

What?
You spoke to me.
I responded to it directly.
What pattern have I missed to arrive at this comnent!?

I'm not allowed to answer back and articulate more clearly?
This is not a arm wrestle battle.
I wanted to know what you thought of the last comment that's all.

I felt it was worth actually have a more developed convo with you .

 

Sure bud. Too many missing words, or verbs, or articulated sentences and thoughts for this specific - hum - acculumation of terms to mean anything. At least to me. Probably because I'm not a natively speaking english person. Call it lost in translation.
Keep on feeding us good tips about the theory (the content), i actually follow your threads and always gain some stuffs by reading between - rambling - lines.
Cheers, my man.

 

Maybe I came across wrong.

I feel like the point of departure was that
You perceive music theory as the history of humans talking about certain patterns in music .
I perceive music theory as the information itself , not what man discovered or named but the content of music theory.
It's like theory of evolution .
I don't see that evolution began with Darwin.
I don't consider the act of his words evolution and the history overtime of science in that area .
I consider evolution the thing itself being talked about deeper down
So yo me evolution began billion years before the human act of recognizing and naming and describing .
The music theory isn't the act of historical naming and describing after the fact.
The music theory is the deeper level thing that existed which humans eventually found out and named later on.
Music. Theory is on par with conceptual physics equations of E= mc2
Or calculus .
Yes Newton made a discovery he named calculus .
But underneath the thing he's talking about is a pattern in nature itself .
You see once you establish a set criteria

Say
12 equal tones spread 88 keys .

There are fundimental relationships embedded in that structure based on the criteria .
There is a way that all combinations exist in relationship to the parameters involved.
Next the way our auditory system operates
Certain patterns hit us one way and other hit us another way .
I don't care what label we give these patterns.
I care about what exists what relationships .
Because I can take that and use it for a specific goal and context ( make a song foo(

 

Last edited: Dec 11, 2019

See you can actually express things in an intelligible way for a foreigner like me.
Put simply yeah. Of course for me music, or painting, and their theories aren't that kind of theories (evolution). At all.
Not that biological factors don't come into play. It's a little part of it. Mostly it's a cultural phenomenon, and theory just covers that, well after the facts. Well cultural phenomenons and theories, the western music system is far from being the only one.