Add to these the brand new Gigabyte TRX40 Designare. Although not verified for audio atm, it uses Gigabyte's Titan Ridge TB3 Extension card which works nicely with UAD Thunderbolt cards as tested on Gigabyte Intel mobos with a TB header.
Expect to see more AMD mobos with TB3 in the near future. It's only the beginning

Bios > Security > Virtualisation > Kernel DMA Protection : Disable
And you 're done with it, that is if you have a hint that the feature introduces latency since it uses cpu cycles instead of writing directly to ram.
There is a tweak from within Win10 as well (Enabling/Disabling Secure Device Guard etc), but in general disabling Secure Boot with DMA from the BIOS or similar options will do the trick.

No doubt pci-e is still capable. I 've been using pci-e for my critical mixing/recording too many years. The fact that most pci-e audio cards follow the "set it and forget it" example, is very handy and never gets in the way of what you are doing. And TB should be more convenient, audio interfaces connected to TB3 have to use a TB3 to TB2 adaptr/converter (most peeps buy the Startech one) which for me, is unacceptable. And since TB3 has been in use a good 4 years+ now they should have fixed this crappy,bulky dongle sht. Still, even with those things in mind, TB devices are as fast as Pci-e but also portable. Surely from a professional's standpoint who wants the fastest without any hassle, pci-e interfaces are much more easier to use and perhaps more reliable even driver-wise. But portability of TB devices brings an additional value to the interfaces which pci-e cards don't provide.
Cheers
Ps: My "money" is on Ethernet Interfaces atm. Imho they represent the future and with 10GbE being a thing in more and more motherboards each year, the potential of huge I/0 rigs with no unnecessary cabling whatsoever is possible, also minimizing cost. I also think the AVB implementation in particular, is a "protocol" with a great future but we'll just have to wait and see i guess.

 

Last edited: Dec 9, 2019

The last thing I read is USB 4 standard will be available End of 2020 maybe early 2021. Then it takes 6- 12 months for the products to appear on the market. Don't expect USB 4 Interfaces before early mid 2021

PCIe vs TB 3
Check the good old Roundtrip latency test from gearslutz and daw bench. PCIe is still the fastest and rock solid. TB (which is basically a PCI-E protocol) is more convenient.

 

depends on what the needs are indeed,
any RME interface can be used up to 3x within one ASIO Hammerfall driver, so in that particular MADI FX PCIex for a total of 1170 channels,
speaking of "what people need", I'm using 8-year old RME Fireface UFX via usb 2.0 with additional 16 mic pres via ADAT, zero problems and no problems at buffer 128 even when playing live with plugins and usually around 28 hardware inputs and 10 outputs (just note here usb 3.0 is in no way better than usb 2.0 in terms of "speed per channel" similarly as thunderbolt 3 is no way better than thunderbolt 2 or thunderbolt 1)

"practicality" is a very valid point, but I'm assuming OP is building a desktop computer where Thunderbolt and PCI are sharing same lanes from cpu, so with use of dedicated graphics card and NVME there's zero difference in terms of "wasting" PCI lanes in total,

I just checked prices of that Quantum 2 interface and some review, not bad choice then, but it's not that well thought as it looks at first sight,

for basically same price I'd still prefer PCIex RME HDSPe AIO as "base" which can be extended by additional 8in/8out via ADAT by whatever high-end converter anytime later, while having features like zero-latency TotalMix FX, DSP loopback, SteadyClock auto-sync etc..

anyway, here's a latency chart, basically showing latency does not really depend on interface connection used, but device manufacturer ability to properly code drivers for it:

 

The link said that.

 

Pay atention, from Mojave the shartpple has dropped Nvidia support. You must have integrated Intel 4000 graphics or AMD.
Look here for future MACOS compatible components:https://www.tonymacx86.com/buyersguide/building-a-customac-hackintosh-the-ultimate-buyers-guide/

 

Now that's 4ms of latency right there - the air between his ears and the furthest speakers. Roughly 1ms a foot.

 

ethernet interfaces are future, but after participating on various AOIP seminars, I realized this technology is far more complex than vast majority of engineers or admins can handle, let me just share few core caveats:

1) onboard NIC can provide only inferior performance compared to dedicated PCIex interface so far, and there is no reason for manufacturers to waste money on high-end NICs capable of doing better just yet (don't look at "speed" but rather processing speed of packets and consistency of throughput)

2) AVB is dead end, it's running at wrong IP layer, so can't be used with generic switches, and basically just replaces point to point cable (like MADI or Coax or AES) with different physical cable, there are no real advantages or useful scalability, sorry

3) proper implementation is nonexistent as of today, because although major players (Dante, Ravenna, REDNET...) are basically using same layer and protocol for audio stream, they're still using dedicated control layer and sync layer, so interoperability especially for configuration and management is limited

4) network by design is problematic to use for audio, because packets have limited size and are travelling at different rate than audio sample rates, so proper timestamping is crucial, using for ex. dedicated NTP server isn't accurate enough, and PTPv2 grandmaster setups are rare yet,
and then there's big question what to use for transport - TCP is checking packet consistency, loss etc.. but introduces latency, and UDP can be used basically realtime but doesn't care if any packets of stream get lost, delayed or misplaced

5) effective low-latency audio networking would require very high samplerates to minimize overheads, but computers are not quite ready for it (just try find some interfaces capable of 768 kHz, very few so far)

6) minimizing cost is a valid point, but since reliable use can only be achieved by dedicated infrastructure, basically every computer would need to have 2 NICs onboard, and operating systems would need to be prepared for that (Windows can't really handle internal multi-NIC routings and allocations for processes that good sadly)

7) networked audio when used in bigger scale than from point A to point B requires multicast, and knowledge of that is basically considered datacenter administrator - no beginner business to take care of - not for home use most likely, but be aware audio networks AREN'T plug and play...

 

Yes I want to build a desktop computer, but it's also great if this can be a general discussion about latency and I am amazed by the response to the topic Personally, my only issue with thunderbolt is the price tag - I looked for TB interfaces and they are like 2000€ and I am only making music as a hobby. Still I feel like something like a RTL of 2ms for vsti should be achievable if you only use a handful of tracks, right? Judging from the Dawbench Ratings and price I was rather thinking of a RME HDSPE AIO which would also allow me to get a Ryzen CPU. I was thinking of spending about 1200 € (more if necessary) on the computer build so I thought something like a Ryzen 3600X might be a sensible choice where I get affordable power compared to intel cpus.

 

I've been using RME HDSPe AIO in multiple various computers, it's definitely a reliable interface, keep an eye on some deals and you can get it much cheaper,

there are few "problems" to be aware of:

1) there is no hardware knob to control volume, which may not be comfortable if you plan to use it without additional gear
(there is a controller by RME, ARC USB, to provide control of TotalMix, I'm testing one and it's usable, not convinced about its value though)

2) since it's solely PCIex powered, under certain circumstances it may happen you'll hear hum or whistling noise in speakers - I believe it's more a matter of power supply and amplifiers in speakers, but happens in some PCs I have, and not in others - I'd say any dedicated graphics card which needs additional power cables from psu causes that, never happens on PCs with integrated graphics ...but can't say for certain - just keep in mind regarding your graphics choice then

on my main rig, after years I finally decided to get RME ADI-2 DAC (with remote), which is connected to AIO via optical SPDIF (AIO can switch between ADAT/SPDIF in its settings) so that fixes both of "problems" mentioned above, but is not a cheap solution (justified value for me are various DA filters, perceived loudness curve when lowering volume, remote and physical control including functions like mute, dim etc..)

probably most versatile option for you might be RME Babyface Pro FS ?
yea it's "only" usb 2.0, but offers more versatility than AIO (2 mic inputs, physical volume control, signal indication..), while having those other features like TotalMix FX, solid drivers, transparent ADDA conversion..,
and most likely it offers lowest latency of ALL small usb 2.0 interfaces on the market by now

 

oops my bad! right now it's tricky to pick graphics because Intel igpus don't fully accelerate without patching, and AMD cards are rather weak (and new RX 5700 aren't yet compatible either !)

I'm using High Sierra 10.13.6 hackintosh, no problems, it's roughly as old designed system as Windows 10 LTSC (1809), so I can live with that,
I'm even thinking about buying used GTX 1080 Ti as next step, because there is no AMD card strong enough to compete with it in terms of performance, and at least some compatibility with older MacOS versions...


maybe offtopic again... - this video by SMG shows a decent choice of parts about hackintosh audio workstation:

 

First of all thank you for all the great info and insight you have provided on your post(s).
Lemme just say that we should take this to pm lol, we 've taken the thread to whole other level, but for the sake of whatever readers we have here, i 'll just offer an answer as best as i can, my knowledge at the particular subject is much less than yours, i haven't dwelled as much as i would like in this. What i understood so far about AVB, it's only downside is it uses AVB compliant switches. But this is mandatory because those "smart" switches separate the Ethernet bandwidth and dedicate a portion of it to Audio/Video so it is uninterrupted by the rest of the generic Ethernet activity.
Why i believe AVB has a future :
>Cisco, Intel and Broadcom are already members of the AVnu Alliance: https://avnu.org/
>An interesting read at that website is this: https://avnu.org/bounded-latency/
>Another interesting read is https://noisegate.com.au/audio-over-ip-protocol-milan-what-is-it-and-do-you-need-to-care/
Cheers

 

Thanks this is great advice! Is there a specific place where I should look for deals and how cheap do you think I can get it?
Also 1) I don't think I need a hardware knob as long as I can do it with the drivers. I don't really use them with my current interface anyway.
2) The noises would bother me a lot more, thanks for the warning. I hope I will be fine as I am using powered monitor speakers and will only use some mid level graphics card.

With the Babyface (and in general) my problem is that I don't really know HOW much it affects latency compared to the HDSPE AIO. I mean the goal of the whole pc build is being able to play keyscape/pianoteq as I would play my old Kawai CL35 - without feeling latency (I can not really hear latency with my current setup, but I can feel it). But as my current pc is a 6 years old laptop with an old m-Audio Fast Track Pro, I think there should be a lot of room to improve

As you are experienced with the AIO which is still kind of a mystery to me: would this be the right choice to plug in MIDI in, microphone, 6.3mm in and two 6.3mm outs for my speakers?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/rme_bo9632_breakoutkabel.htm?ref=intl&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6IjIiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6ImVuIn0=

 

i'm quoting my own comment on a sister site,

"There is a lot to explain when it comes to real time audio, primarily is the ram, and it's timing, if you know how to manually set timing and tightening them you get all the boost you need, it is even better than CPU oc is most if not all cases, Intel and AMD alike.

Second is the Ring, (Intel side), Infinity Fabric (AMD side), You OC that and you get another huge boost.

Lastly you OC your CPU, let Stability and generated heat be your guide, this is where things a bit complicated, you want to oc enough to gain more Horse power, but not too mush that you sacrifice stability, also keep an eye on your sensors.

i run mastering plugins on my full mixing session and still be able to play through it with buffer set at 32."

I can go into more details if requested, but i managed to make my computer work more snappy with the ability to actually mix and master in the same project without dropouts.

For now start by downloading Aida64, and run it's "cache and memory benchmark" and post a screenshot for anyone who's after some help fixing his problems.

 

Hey man, im looking to build a PC in the very near future, were there any temperature limitations with OC when using the designare z390? My core parts list is nearly identical to yours (mobo + memory + cpu + cooler is the same), although i havent took the dive and bought them yet. Ive read some reviews suggesting the overclocking potential might not be as strong as something like the aorus z390 master. I was wondering what your opinion was. Im at a crossroads as i would definitely want to OC to 5GHz, but i also need a thunderbolt port for my interface (aorus master doesnt have one). Supposedly Aorus master has better cooling heatsinks for VRM and slightly better OC potential. What do you think? There is so much literature posing this motherboard range (all z390 boards). Is there a specific reason why everyone at gearslutz was recommending this build? Is there something special about the mobo compared to others in a similiar price range? (Also i dont mind buying a pcie card for thunderbolt potential, such as the titan ridge if there is an even better mobo.) Also what about memory OC? i would like to get to 3200 --> 3466Mhz OR 3200 --> 3600Mhz while staying on 16 cas latency. do you have an experience with memory OC or how easy it is to tune in the BIOS? Sorry for the crazy amount of questions, its just been on my shopping cart for a long time and ive never bitten the bullet. My current PC is 10yrs old so i wanna get a powerhouse :P

 

The ultimate motherboard with best VRM numbers is:
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS XTREME but that is pretty expensive so people often pick the Designare instead. As to the difference between Aorus z390 Master and Designare I'm not sure but I guess they are pretty equal on VRM numbers.

 

Please elaborate. Any extra sauce for optimizing audio computers is always helpful!

 

Based on the following criteria, there are two complete system examples.

Processor - Mixing, Plugins, Exporting
For digital audio production, it is beneficial to have more processor cores rather than a higher
clockspeed per core.

Memory
In general, 3-6GB of RAM per CPU core is recommended. For example, if you select a
single 12-core processor, 32GB will suffice for basic tasks or 64GB for more demanding workloads.

If you are using many virtual instruments and plugins, we recommend 8GB of RAM per CPU core.

Storage
In general, we recommend a two to four drive configuration depending on your budget and desired
performance level:

Primary Drive: SSD for the operating system, software and plugins
Secondary Drive: another SSD, or for better performance, an NVMe Flash Storage Drive for active
project files and disk cache.

Optional Third Drive (SSD or HDD): rather than store the samples on the secondary drive, placing
them on a third drive can improve performance and free up space.

Optional Fourth Drive (HDD): storage for the larger sound libraries on hard disk.

Graphics
Professional audio applications usually don't utilize (or makes slight use of) GPU acceleration, so a high-end graphics card is not required. Therefore, a Quadro P600 is recommended.

---Systems----

Intel Core i9-10900X (3.7GHz/4.7GHz, 10C/20T, LGA2066) $600.
be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 50.5CFM CPU Cooler $ 89.
64GB (4x 16GB) of 2933MHz DDR4 Memory $310.
500GB SATA6 2.5" SSD $ 55.
1TB SATA6 2.5" SSD $100.
NVIDIA Quadro P600 2GB $246.
Corsair RM (2019) 750W 80+ Gold Certified Modular PSU $105.
Gigabyte X299X Aorus Master eATX Motherboard $429.
Fractal Design Define XL R2 (Black Pearl) ATX Full Tower Case $136.
------
$1,981.00
_________________________________________________________________________________

AMD Ryzen 9 3900X 3.8 GHz 12-Core Processor $500.
be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 50.5 CFM CPU Cooler $ 89.
Gigabyte X570 AORUS MASTER ATX AM4 Motherboard $360.
G.Skill Aegis 64 GB (4 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory $210
SanDisk SSD PLUS 1 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive $100.
Team T-Force VULCAN 500 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive $ 55.
PNY Quadro P600 2 GB Video Card $246.
Fractal Design Define XL R2 (Black Pearl) ATX Full Tower Case $136.
Corsair RM (2019) 750 W 80+ Gold Certified Modular PSU $105.
------
$1,801.00

 

The technology is here with Ryzen 3000 series/Zen 3. Ryzen 4 is slated for 3rd/4th quarter of 2020.
USB 4.0 just needs a nailed down spec (similar with what happened to MIDI). I looking for an announcement at Winter NAMM 2020 from at least one hardware maker. That should get the ball rolling.

Personally not buying any current USB 3 Gen. 2 interface until a solid standard is in place. Will it be forward compatible?

 

Nice thread and very relevant to me these days