If Paco was good enough for Al Di Meola and John McLaughlin, he 's as good as anyone could be. And because i 've seen live all 3 of them, Paco could play the kind of impro that you 'd never expect, even if you were familiar with his work.
I won't sit around discussing this with you further mate. You see, as opposed to a lot of my friends here, i like your theory mumbling substitutions and all, but i have to disagree with you, there is no "better" music. If there was such a thing, you'd be the king of the charts. Or at least the king of the alternative. Wtf the king of the underground even.
But as of now, you just interact with mere muggles sir. If you can't see harmony in rock you haven't heard enough of it, especially when you cite Yes as an exception to your "rule", hence as harmonious. And don't forget rock (or most of it at least) has lyrics, where as the jazz portion that comes with lyrics is mostly love themes, nothing sophisticated with very few exceptions.
Cheers

 

Dont be an asshole, krakenfart. BTW, what a stupid name.

There is a lot of great info up there... take and use it if you can understand it... or don't. If you already know all this, good for you. If you don't want to know, then don't piss on it if other people can take something positive away from what he wrote. If you don't like it, move on.

The Internet is full of dickheads like you, unfortunately. You need a nap. Or a personality transplant.

 

Who is this aimed at please? No matter who, can't you just keep it civil ? You 're 8 yrs here and suddenly you felt the need to write something like this ?

 

Imagine all the sounds of rock but setup like an orchestra with 50 layers.
15 separate electric guitars .
3 drummers
25 singers.
Piano , organ
My point is something good possibly be made out of the sounds and timbre of any genre.
Music to me Is not the way things sound.
Happy birthday song sounds the same on electric guitar , trumpet, stand up bass , harmonica

You could make orchrstra with the sounds of metal or rock or hip-hop
With a real music foundation

This think about people always say if x music was better than you'd be celebrity etc.
This is propaganda .
Music has nothing to do with celebrity
Celebrity is its own phenomenon.
We been taught to think in that way.
How good music is has nothing to do with the person that made it.
( If you didn't know who made a song , it couldn't be better or worse music just by changing who you aware of that made it.)
Also the general public isn't interested in high quality music I think that's quite apparent
Look at the billboard charts.
We all know that even 1 hour of music education would make all thst junk 10 times better.
There is no music in that.
It's a beat that repeats but there's nothing underneath and nothing on top
Drums on its own is empty .
Very high quality of music would be hard to understand by a person no musical background .
They want simplicity .
Mind numbingly dull music.
There's a reason for that because it's what they were taught to want.

The price we pay for these things I'd music as s category is now worthless In society
We have the capacity right this second to make better music than ever in history.
What do we do in return?
As a society we put out hundred million albums per
Day
Of
Boom snap boom boom snap
3 notes and some lyrics
Now, the entire world things music is garbage or a nursery rhyme product to sell at best ,
That music is a tool to exploit to get celebrity status

I challenge you listen honestly listen to this right here

Only listen to this right here 7 days .
Watch what happens to you .

 

This is my exact point.

Do you think that lyrics are music?
Music has to be removed in order to fit a separate thing like " lyrics" in
( Lyrics and words have no connection to music.
It's a separate added thing that in order to insert you need to make space and to make space you have to remove music itself .)

Do you think the music of
Say Bach is just okay, but if it had lyrics drums added with a music video it would be much better ?

We been trained to remove more and more music abd occupy that vacancy other unrelated things
Like words lyrics , videos things that have to do with culture hip hop is an example .
Speaking words inserted where music could instead be .
This is why the state of " music"
As a whole category is poor now in society .
Because people come to expect the unrelated added things that in order to insert you have yo remove the actual music part!
Now what are we left with?
Hundreds of millions of albums come out per day literally which nobody buys even though that was the only intent for making it .
They didnt make those millions albums per day with music in mind or for the sake of music itself .
It's just a drum beat ( instead of music moving you)
Lyrics ( instead of harmony moving you )
And videos ( instead of music do high quality you don't wAnt to pay attention to anything else )
This is all celebrity and money seeking .
The music has been all removed.
Most people have no idea how to play
A 6 note chord in 6 inversions per octave .
Then make progressions where each chord covers all octaves whole instruments .
The sacrifice has been that nobody has ever heard good music before it's just dollar store product version of music .


When was the last time each layer of one your favorite songs was of this quality?

Am I telling the truth or lying , when I speak the words this moment.
This this video posted right here

Has more music than the entire billboard charts catalog of songs combined
This one short video of Oscar Peterson
Has more music than thousands of " artists" songs combined on the billboard charts.

( By your logic he should be the most famous icon celebrity in the world right?

No, instead nobody knows about him.
15 seconds of his playing has more music than
2019's entire billboard chart .


How many superstar celebrity brain surgeons are there?
How many celebrity structural engineers are there?
It's because the celebrity system is it's own thing .
Were taught to buy into under certain conditions
( Like when labels can make money out of it )

We have entire social media platforms where the number of views means your a celebrity .
( Sole purpose (

Yet how many social media platforms do we have where
Anonymously you submit your music and the while goal is out of millions songs you pick the best quality of music ( without knowing who made it )
Judging the music on its own merit?

Celebrity's sell products make companies money.

High quality music is only good to listen to
It don't fit into the capitalistic framework well.

 

Last edited: Dec 4, 2019

@MMJ2017 We agree for the most part.
Btw, you keep making examples with records i 've owned and studied for eons. Like the MD&JC heheh. Where we don't agree, is the bigger picture. Lyrics maybe not music but it is art. And if you speak with a songwriter he will tell you some lyrics imply certain music. You shouldn't underestimate the art of songwriting because it isn't as complex. The complexity is in the mixture of music with lyrics. You focus on complexity in harmony and melody, thinking ingenuity in music is only in the more modern, advanced harmonic and melodic content within bebop and fusion perhaps swing too etc. But Miles Davis himself could play his socks off and then some, also made some of the milestones in modern music, but still could easily recognize and love simplicity in pop music. If he didn't, he wouldn't play with Cameo. He wouldn't be friends with Santana. He wouldn't record a cover of Cindy Lauper's "Time After Time". He wouldn't make hip hop singles like the Doo Bop song which btw also contains a sample of Kool & the Gang's "Summer Madness" and is like 2 fkn chords lol...
So, the thing is you don't appreciate pop music enough. Or you just don't feel it. It's alright. It's just another norm, you are not the first nor will be the last. Just know that it's purist and conservative mate
Cheers

 

There's a lot of hate here for someone who's taking his own time to spread so much knowledge, with such articulation. And for free. It may be called Music "Theory" but when you take the time to realize, there is an absolute fact to the science of it all. It's a tool. It gives us power when we understand not just the 'what' but the 'how' and 'why'. Just like an envelope or a modulation matrix we can play around and get something cool but there's a drastic difference if you know what you are doing and have a specific vision.

I wonder sometimes, if we're all just so affected by this world in our tastes and that if some higher-dimensional being came in and listened to our music would he just scoff and be like "That's not microtonal. That's some childlike baby-shit"
I personally I know I love me some of those three-chord songs. Art is expression but our ways of receiving it are so different. I can play a one note drone and make myself cry. While another will walk by and ask what the fnck I'm doing with some disgusted look on their face.

Isn't this what it's all about though? Bringing all the text-book knowledge we have and applying our human wisdom and spirit to use it in an edifying or just emotionally revealing and true way. We all enlighten at our own pace. We shouldn't bring others down that are spreading what we have proven to ourselves true.

@MMJ2017 I have to admit that some of my favorite songs are those simple, decorative Pop/Rock songs.

 

@MMJ2017 You're trying to apply strong logics (past heritages have come to us) to music but today's music is virtually without logic or at least demand new logics. This is the main reason behind all the oppositions.

I'm personally on your side (though I have almost different views) but what can you do to the people who have found some ways for making logic-less music and don't want to alter or even reform them?

 

You are putting words in my mouth i never said thus, patronizing me (i'd like to believe unintentionally), i never mentioned celebrity, and by refering to my quote as "people always say..." is just as diminishing. I am not "people", i 'm a professional musician. And have been for a good 35 yrs now. If you need links to my discography i'll be happy to provide a few. Being "king" of some scene or part of it, is just an expression, and it doesn't mean or make you a celebrity. It 's just a quick way to say you 'd be recognized by your fellow peer artists as a leader of artistic thought and/or creation, even music tuition if you like and not necessarily a popular figure within the rest of the world. So you need to interpret the words by knowing who they come from, over generalising will do you no good in communication mate, imho.
Even popular musicians, they are artists (for the most part at least) and as such they are not defined by their celebrity status but by their artistic status. Kim Kardashian is a celebrity, doesn't make her an artist.
Over exposure can lead to some artists' being more recognisable than others, this has nothing to do with their artistic value/contribution/creation though. Miles Davis was quite the distinctive, recognisable figure and a well known artist all over the globe. This doesn't put him in the same category as Kim Kardashian. Ever.
Cheers

 

I def believe that any kind sing has potential to be great and sure there are songs that simple or minimalistic which use space part of the art but it's much different a knowledgeable music maker on purpose writing simple because it's really going to show my view is not about how much motion is in any music or a fast never of notes I mean the concrete archetrcture part.

 

What I meant by that was " it is generally thought of
" That a higher quality of music will lead to the maker or writer of it being more well known or appreciated .
But my but it that's not true.
Worse quality music that can sell more units .
Is valued more than higher quality music
( Which may require more cultivation )

Think of it like the spoken language .
What are the phrases that stick as being pop culture?
It's the small catch phrases that catch more than higher quality language that's more articulate .
Example.
" Hey queen"
Or " the patriarchy "
Rather than
“Better to sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunk Christian.” ...

My point is the celebrity phenomenon is appreciated more than the quality of the music itself.
Take Drake , he couldn't write his way out of a paper box.
Or any number of a million pop celebrity's , where people only like the music because that name is attached.

 

First, I'm not sure that you quite understand my view. But besides that
What you can do is what I am doing in all my threads
Putting out for free the information about music do more people can get access , then overtime the quality of music as a area itself will raise .
( For longest time it was not easy to get information about music you had to have access to expensive teachers or schools and even then that's to just get into the basics .)

 

Look at Bach's music , an example of a master writer well cultivated. Yet on purpose made very simple but of a high quality of music without any sacrifice in all three areas of
Harmony
Rhythm
Melody

So the point is not to be against simple music.
( Simple as in number note per second )

A well developed song harmonically
Can still be extremely simple as you want .
As minimalistic as you choose
Hover a knowledgeable writer purposefully making a minimalistic song is entirely different to
A person without knowledge writing music that's not only simple it's incomplete
Underdeveloped
Harmony
Melody
Rhythm

 

I don't have any hate.
I'm not expressing my opinion of views about anything .
I'm only talking about differences in music objectively .
When you take a song and reverse engineer it to the houses cement foundation which everything stands on. That's what I mean.
I'm not talking about the actual sounds heard of actual things played in a song .
For example

I can from scratch take a fragment of cement foundation as in the KEY of C.
Just 1 chord Cmaj CEG

Now that we have this here's 2 examples
Using it.
One is a Melody
Start on C go up a tenth to E up a third to G down a fifth to C.

The second example is

C down to G#FF#G , FDD#EDCABDFG#, G

Now even thought these 2 examples sound vastly different in the complexity of what's played .

I consider the " music " the exact same .
It's only what was played in a moment of time that is different
Both have the identical music .
( Just a C major triad )


Think about the phrase
" You can't polish a turd "
Right?

I mean take a ugly man with bad attitude in a nice outfit a woman is going to say " oh, hell no...."

Take a ugly woman that's horrible to be around and put the best wig and outfit on , your still going to run away.

Music that is missing important requirements ( but has superb decoration like engineering production )
It's bad music .

 

Last edited: Dec 5, 2019

I have a bias where my personal taste is that I really like the modern genres ( last 40 years).
It's because I grew up with it I made many albums of my own and more than that of other artists groups bands .
But If we look past bias and even opinions.
Just look at the music part of a song to compare to another you just get an answer regarding how well it was crafted, how much wisdom skill used etc.
This is very easy thing just study a master like Bach , Beethoven or Liszt .
Get use to reverse engineering what is specifically played reversed back to the songs form structure
( A house cement foundation )
Once that done you will see what's exactly used in what was specifically played which tecniques. Which wisdom expertise in craftsmanship .
Is it changing tones, arpeggio, grave notes ?
Certain melodic contours in which different I instruments note collide to form the harmonic framework ?

A beginner never writes like a master
Your going write out of ignorance or out of wisdom
( It's a gradient )
When we look at the music portion of modern genres.
It's all decoration no wisdom in writing no cement foundation.
It's like expensive rug with high end lamb
And sofa in a dirt plot of land with a tarp on top and a camp fire.
( Compared to a masterbuilt mansion )

It's nothing to do with the things we do like with the modern genres like the production engineering .
The sounds timbres synth vocals lyrics etc.
Rapping, heavy guitars rock n roll yells
Edm 808s there's no problem with those things there great .

I spent 20 years perfecting production engineering
And once I got it perfect, I realized it don't even matter at all in any way.

Check this out a song from mid 1920s
Absolutely no production and engineering.
There's no equipment that exists today this bad .
For recording.
Yet listen to the music part .
It's better than all things in the billboard charts combined .

 

Last edited: Dec 5, 2019

Here is some modern yet high quality music

 

Last edited: Dec 5, 2019

You expose too much but in unsystematic ways. It's the essence of the jazz cool guys.

Your pedagogical teaching is so disorganized that shows you yourself haven't understood well too and just heard sth. With this method of teaching I don't think you can have lots of students.

I advise you to close your school for at least 4 years and take lessons in your favorite fields. It will help you to expose too little but more useful like flashy vulgarity that I love so much.

 

Did you start at page 1 of this thread?
It covers everything step by step for you in proper order.
So the truth is exactly opposite of the vague typings
You decided on for your comment.
If there's any truth to you believing that go ahead and speak about a specific area and we can discuss it based on the specific context .

What I translate your comment to mean is that you, yourself don't understand the while topic..

Otherwise why wouldn't you point to something specific and talk about a problem with it?

These type comments like yours a person
Types a vague description , where it seems almost like a vague dis .
It does not hold up .
If you had a problem you would talk specifically.
You say things like
Jazz cool guys I don't even know what that could mean " meaning " is what matters most.
" Meaning".
If it's not a troll comment,
And you have any integrity.

Wouldn't you accomplish more by quoting an area you don't get or think it's disorganized.
If you ask questions you can get answers and find out that it's actually organized.

You comment in this weird way like you want to emotionally or psychology impact me in some way possible with an insult or negativity.
But in order for that strategy to succeed and actually have desired impact on me ( the real person that exists)
You have to say something that can really connect .
In this case quote area that's " wrong"
Or you have problem with.
List out a the ways specific things are wrong.
That will have the highest probability
Of impacting in the way you seek.
Compare that to just a vague storytelling like you did that does not connect to anything that exists it makes no impact.
( That is if you goal is really to do that.)
I'm just curious why you wouldn't have a different goal instead.
( To read and learn about music , since you are in music education thread.)
But it's up to you.
You get to decide what choices you make right?

The ole'
Throw a tantrum cuz you don't get it right away .
That's missing these values.
Honor
Integrity
Respect
Dignity
Trust


Let's look at the very first words in this thread.

....,......
To understand substitutions in Jazz ,
We first want to think about our 3 functions in tonal music .
Tonic/ Subdominant/ Dominant

Our substitutions will exist in 1 of these 3 categories .
Tonic is relaxed or still.
Subdominant is little tense or some motion.
Dominant is very tense or lots of motion far from home.
.........


That is the short answer the the entire topic of the thread itself.
It cannot get anymore organized then that.
( That I am aware of.)
If you have a more organized way I'm def open
You could have led with
What you " mean" by organized to begin with correct?
( You must have something in mind )

How organized is your comment itself?


You say ....

You expose too much but in unsystematic ways

.....


So right out the gate your comment exposes too much because you say this first sentence but never explain what it means " meaning " is key .

You should have made a description in paragraph just to unpack your first idea .
( Remember organization right?

Next your comment is as unorganized as it gets
Because it's so ambiguous , it's impossible to tell
What you " mean" by what you say .

Your own comment only contains the qualities you accuse and it has no other properties .

You have essentially
Did the behaviors you accuse others of
Then it ends.
Nothing else happens.

 

Last edited: Dec 5, 2019

I carefully quote 4 of MMJ's phrases from above (irrespective of whether his phrases are offensive)

MMJ reminds me of those Pop-Idle contestants that get thrown out in the opening round for being so totally deluded, I see MMJ as being (Dunning Kruger-like) hopelessly blind to the bleedingly obvious missing quote that should have been at the end of his list...

"Take a stream of verbal diarrhea, from an incoherent wannabee music guru, dress it up with a pretentious deluded superiority complex... it is still educationally pathetic!"

I seriously suggest MMJ sends his utterly hopeless ramblings to any music education publishing outlet. I guarantee they won't publish any of it, and it would be no surprise if they replied using MMJ's own quote "You can't polish a turd"!

p.s. as I've commented many times elsewhere, I really do love music theory!, I just hate seeing it hi-jacked and abused by incompetence, especially when that incompetence is dressed up with phoney grandiosity.

 

Last edited: Dec 6, 2019