what was that movie? One flew over the Cookoos Nest

 

Or ghost busters?
I prefer groundhog day actually.
Needlenose ned!

 

The people i know who suffered from writer's block, including my own self for 3 yrs, never had any problems with form or structure but you wrote that. Surely you must think again if you meant for instance Rachmaninoff didn't know what to write lol. I had already 50-60 songs released and another 100 unreleased and had appeared as writer or co-writer in 10 albums and munerous singles when this happened to me. I dunno if it was the drugs or rather the lack of them (withdrawal syndrom) but for 3 yrs i wrote about 20 songs which i deleted totally and shreded whatever sheet parts i had. Only 1 survived because my girlfriend at the time saved it in her own computer. But whatever my condition and the reasons for it were, two things are certain. I knew exactly what form and structure is and i knew exactly what to write and how to express my emotion through music. I just felt that everything i created was in vain and insignificant.
Cheers

 

MMJ2017, it's crazy to write as much as you have here, and nothing within your writing is indicative of a "how to". What you're doing is scattering your random thoughts all over the floor, and if you pick them up (read them back to yourself) you'll be left with the vague idea you started with. If you have to talk that much, it means what you're talking about doesn't make sense to you.

 

Last edited: Dec 1, 2019

If you take Cmajor Chord
And just starting playing thousands of melodies over it , your not going to hit a point where you
Don't know what to do next
I'm using writers block in a everyday persons music sense .
It's people that haven't developed a musical understanding fully who run ideas or don't know what to do next.
It's identical with not knowing what sentence to speak next it how to finish the sentence
( I'm not referring to any out of ordinary medical conditions go seek a Dr if that's you )
If someone does not know what sentence to speak and your trying to help them what do you ask?

1.what is the topic for which you'd like to speak

( This is musical equivielent to what is your song about? What feelings do you want the listener of the finished song to experiAnce.)

NO that's completely valid what you are describing ,
And my heart goes out to you i would do whatever I could to help you get okay .hang out withyou collaberate. just hangout discuss music.
I know what you mean.
That type situation is fairly rare and the key thing
It's not actually music related directly more a 8ssue to do with life itself .

 

With everything you say here in this comment
It's applicable to this comment itself.
Yet when I look at mine, I immediately see two
Main concepts
1.form
2.chaos.
And then those get a very long description of how they are applicable.
However with your comment here you are not really saying anything , I don't have anything to point at and list out the contents .do you know what I mean?

I only get left with 1 question after reading your comment.

In my head.

" How can this persons comment be guilty of the exact thing it describes?"
There's no content to speak of.

You see that's nothing at all similar to what I am describing.

Not only that how serious can you be about your accusations if you do it also
Next show no examples of what you accusing me of
So what can I get out of it?
I give you many examples of form and chaos
Structure and creativity.
Your not giving me examples of what you say is happening at all.

Maybe you didn't grasp on the first read , like many things in life you may have to look at it more than once to fathom.
I explained
The importance of taking these two
Packages concepts

1.form ( structure)
Pattern recongition by the brain .
Following a system.

2.chaos,( no pattern (
Improvisation .

That they exist at all levels of music and exist in different ways at the different levels .

 

Last edited: Dec 1, 2019

You're not describing "how to" anything. Your thoughts are all over the place. What do you mean there's no example of this? Everything you've written here is proof of it. You're spinning your tires.. going nowhere.

 

Form and chaos

Two concepts

These have to do with the brain recognizing patterns ( where the concepts originate from )

There is a place for following a present structure
Yet also s place for creating in the moment ( chaos creativity)

Music can be looked at and exists at many levels.

The zoomed out view of song sections .
The zoomed in view of a looped 1 second moment that 3 fast notes if a Melody land in the next chord in the progression.

If you use the concepts of form and chaos.

As a package ( like I look at a person as 1 object in short term memory in the thought process(
I'm packaging the information down
Like to memorize the states of the USA you use abbreviations . To learn phone numbers you break the numbers into 3 parts

You can use you music knowledge of theory and how music works as a tool by packaging into 2 containers
1.form
2.chaos

Here is an example.

Zoomed out to the level of building the cement foundation of your house ( your song foundation

We have key of C major
This is form.

Next we have it's 7 chords ( form
We have our 3 structures that a progression follows

Tonic Subdominant
Tonic dominant
Tonic Subdominant Dominant

( Form)

Say we actually create this progression for the harmonic foundation to verse 1 of the song.

Cmaj6/ F#dim7/ Dmin7/ G7/

This repeats 4 times.

Let's see how we got there and which was for and which was chaos or creativity.

First the progression is " turned around "

If we put it back to normal it is.

Dmin7/ G7/ Cmaj6/ F#dim7/

Let's break it down further.

Dmin7/ is Subdominant
G7 is dominant
Cmaj6 is tonic

So far we have this structure

Subdominant/ Dominant/ Tonic/

We plugged in Dmin7 G7 Cmaj6
( Out of other choices we could have made
That's where the chaos comes in our free will
To select multiple options based in the feelings the chords create.)

Finally the F#dim7 Is a Subdominant , however it's a non Diatonic substitution this is more chaos or creatively . However this #IV
Gas interesting property combined to our full progression.

Here's whole thing.
( With proper chord Voicings this time.)

CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF

Now watch this.
Start at your highest octave and look at chord to next chord all the way through while traveling through all your octaves

CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF
CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF
CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF
CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF

 

Now I will describe the significance of the above comment .

We are looking at the foundation level of establishing the chord progression for a song section
( Form ,structure)
We look at the key of c ( a decision which could of been any key this is the chaos level of creativity making choices that have consequences on what happens next )
Now we have our Key it's 7 chords broken into
Tonic Subdominant Dominant
Chords
Finally we get to assembling them together in
3 possible ways.
Tonic Subdominant
Tonic dominant
Tonic Subdominant Dominant

( Each them can be turned around or peices together)
Next this level of me making a choice how to select and what happens once I do is chaos .

But let's look at what I selected.

Cmaj6/ F#dim7/ Dmin7/ G7/

Step 1 I picked

Tonic Subdominant Dominant
Turned it around
Subdominant Dominant Tonic
Next plugged in certain choices
Dmin7/ G7/ Cmaj6/
Next I took this other structure
Tonic subdominant.
Cmaj6 / F#dim7/

Peiced together

Dmin7/ G7/ Cmaj6/ F#dim7/
Lastly turned it around 1 last time.

Cmaj6/ F#dim7/ Dmin7/ G7/

That's the process of choices I made ( chaos)
Using the form .

Now I will describe why and as I showed above comment it's implications of choosing the way I did.


By making that series of choices I was able to create and tie into several forms .
1.voice leading
( Notes of chord changing minimal amount from chord to chord

Ex. Of how I incorporated it .

Cmaj6...F#Dim7.....Dmin7....G7
CEGA.....CD#F#A.....CDFA...BDFG#

Next level of form I chose
Was closed Voicings.
..........
CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF
...

If you follow first chord to next and next so on

Look what happens , you are gradually moving some notes down each time ( voice leading )
Next, when you get to the end in the progression
It starts over again but all the chords are on a different chord inversion that continues to move down .


CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF
CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF
CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF
CGAE CF#AD# CFAD BFG#D
AEGC AD#F#C ADFC G#DFB
GCEA F#CD#A FCDA FDBG#
EACG D#ACF# DACF DG#BF


The implications for this are that
You get the whole Ibstrument covered by each chord from the highest octave to the lowest octave,
Not only that you see how to move from one chord to next in the same space your currently at with minimal movement.
So I used knowledge of level of forms andplaces where I had choices ( creativity or chaos not pre-planned )
I used the choices to create new forms that spread the chords across the whole Ibstrument
Being able take a chord progression
And play it 4 places in each octave for all octaves moving 1 note at time at all times.
How can you get writers block if you have millions possibilities like this?
I have the when range human hearing covered low to high octave 4 Voicings per octave , per progression.

Keep in mind this was just step1 for a song come up with the progression
( In this case I did where the progression covers range human hearing each note changing 1 note at time )
Every level of detail in music has these possibilities this is just me showing you 1 example of 1 step .

 

Now ask yourself,

What does it mean to be able to take any chord across the whole 4ange of any instrument ?
Also that chord leading to the next for any progression such that the progression covers the whole Ibstrument from low to high octaves?

The answer is that any melodic motion can now be made .
You have a way to move in every direction at any time you want. For each layer of instruments and sounds. This means you hAve now ended up as a consequence of your choices,
To be able to do anything in any form .

So you might ask.
" Well you ended up being able to move any direction for each layer at any time then what is the point of having the form to begin with?"

The answer to that is form gives you a way to play with any musician the first time you meet them not knowing or pre-planning what wAs going to be done in advance.
+ ( Think of having conversation only knowing the topic before hand not knowing the people or what what going to be said but you knew the topic very well.(
I'm taking about understanding your form and understanding what choices lead to where such that you have total freedom fluency expression no restrictions.

 

It is np. And thnx for the offer. I'd jam anytime with ya, no matter the crazy scientist you are
That happened to me a long time ago and lasted about 3 years, if you can call 3 years a short time. It was a moment in time after the band i was in had their biggest success. We were on tour constantly and at some point while i was hitting 34-35 i decided to quit drugs, i just hated the hangovers and the craving. The thing as is see it now retrospectively is, when you get used to a certain way of "writing and performing under the influence", then it takes a whole new mental approach to be fully functional within your immediate surroundings and by extension in your job/life as a musician/writer, without using drugs or getting drunk etc. I had to endure some drastic changes in my life while i was being what you'd call "a recovering addict" but those were strong enough to shake me off my "place of convenience", obliging me to find new ways to create and eventually re-invent my whole purpose as a human being. I 'd like to believe it was for the better, as after my recovery and de-blocking myself, the last 15 years or so, i built my 6th studio,i produced a good deal of albums and singles, wrote and co-wrote a bunch of tunes, gigged, got happily married.
I understand that in a nutshell you are talking about how to phrase and compose more easily, this could come handy to people who are just starting or have some gaps within their knowledge structure. Truly, when you are aware of the (infinite) possibilities there's little chance to lose your way while creating, you'll always find a remedy for that missing chorus chord or middle8 etc. Imho you should rename the thread as it is kinda misleading, mental conditions like writer's block can even be diagnosed as mental illnesses, theory cannot help a seasoned musician with psychological problems, is all i'm saying bro.
For what it's worth, 19 yrs ago, i was diagnosed as "depressed" which is common among artists and has been discussed again here. We have to like and accept ourselves first in order to progress in life imho and writer's block is just a mental negative stance.
Cheers

 

I described 1 example at one level of musical detail
And how form and chaos are a part of that specific level of detail.

We are finding out that form
( A pre planned structure setup to memorize and understand )
Vs
Chaos ( the ability to choose in a moment freely with improvisation )
Actually work together , each choice made impacts what usuable forms can be made next .


Let's now look at a different level of musical detail .

Zoomed into our first chord
Cmaj7
CEGB

We will freeze time by looping this in our mind to see what possibilities ( chaos ,creativity) come from which forms ( pre set structure like Cmaj7)
And how once a choice is made , a new door opens for possibilities for form.

So say your bass instrument plays this.

CEGBCAA#BC

Looped it's

CEGBCAA#B{CEGBCAA#B}CEGBCAA#B

First we outline the form using Cmaj7
C is root
E is 3rd
G is 5th
B is 7th
At the End of B we start back down at beginning.
The end of B going to C again sets up resolution.

Next we have this weird looking bit what's this?

CAA#B ?
Well we are going ahead to our next beginning note C
And anticipating that with a chromatic Ascension

AA#BC
You see this adds chaos by building tension such that when finally we land in C next bar it hits more powerfully and we added variation to our whole line
We used form and added chaos to bring it alive with emotion look again.

CEGBCAA#B{CEGBCAA#B}CEGBCAA#B

Every section is informed by what happened before and what'd coming next like a infinity symbol .
We get variation so nothing sounds too boring or repetitive.
We get proper form such that the bass outlines the harmony correctly, but we also get a sense of being alive .

I want you to build this baseline up so you can year it ( quarter notes 4/4 tempo 90 bpm

CEGBCAA#BCEGBCAA#BCEGBCAA#BCEGBCAA#B

Listen to it for 8 repititions
( It won't really last that long but to show you it's Alice and not boring sounding

Now as it going , create a piano layer
In kind of high range play this .

( Exact Voicings )

CGAE ( long ring ) { BFG#B as quick stab at end
AEGC ( long ring). {G#DFB as quick stab end of bar
GCAE ( long ring (. { FBDG# as quick stab end bar
EACG ( long ring ). { DG#BF as quick stage end bar

Now going from high octave to low octave traveling down each time start over again lower playing it as the baseline loops over and over.

CGAE ( long ring ) { BFG#B as quick stab at end
AEGC ( long ring). {G#DFB as quick stab end of bar
GCAE ( long ring (. { FBDG# as quick stab end bar
EACG ( long ring ). { DG#BF as quick stage end bar

CGAE ( long ring ) { BFG#B as quick stab at end
AEGC ( long ring). {G#DFB as quick stab end of bar
GCAE ( long ring (. { FBDG# as quick stab end bar
EACG ( long ring ). { DG#BF as quick stage end bar

CGAE ( long ring ) { BFG#B as quick stab at end
AEGC ( long ring). {G#DFB as quick stab end of bar
GCAE ( long ring (. { FBDG# as quick stab end bar
EACG ( long ring ). { DG#BF as quick stage end bar

Each time moving down.
What you are experiencing is moving Cmajor through all octaves with the accompanment.

Now that you done this try down those chord Voicings in different orders and with different rhythms over the baseline .
Take just the low note and high note of the chord voicing leave out the middle and jump around different ways and timings .

Can you begin to see how even with 1 chord
( And using only the chord tones)
That an infinite amount of choices appear to choose from ?

 

Did this thread turn into the "music theory black hole" again?

 

I only know that you are a champion .

 

Just at least give it a shot a chance it going to give you more possibilities than you thought you had before read my newest comment of describing steps to do that open things up in the 1 chord Cmajor thanks for coming around my brah. Please chill up in dis mofo with us B.

I'm showing that the music theory
Is only there to give you a way to do anything you could ever imagine with music.

Just in same way we use words people know about and make sentences they get the meaning of the music theory ( that I deal with anyway)
Is there to do to things with it's nothing on its own.

I'm not talking about 14th century flute terms or made up complex words to describe a 17 note combination by a 12th century monk in the outhouse.
I'm using the most laid back possible way to describe music which anyone can get together and knowing it have total freedom to make music that moves people the way you intended it to.

 

Last edited: Dec 1, 2019

help!!!! moderators...troll attack troll attack.....please remind these people that if they dont like the content of the thread to just move on...read something else....no one is asking you to read it...and certainly no one is asking you to pick it apart....in short NO ONE GIVES A SHIT WHAT YOU THINK......specifically baxter and jhagen....what utter dopes......duh

 

Why not make a 2 minute video and get it over with?

 

please MMJ just move on with this idea.....keep it going ...dont let your house be distracted by the bad plumbers....block em...i have
ahhhhh the blessed IGNORE button...press it sincere ones press it feel the peace......

 

Snap! You are right.
I'm out.

 

easy to see who needed the lobotomy.....