Let's look at a specific idea related to Modal language .
This idea is that we never need to repeat a moment in our writing . Yet, the modal language unity still gives the listener a steadiness to hold onto .
It's not just going to be ever-changing chaos .
They are going to get the impression of stability
Even though you can create ever changing music that does not go stale boring or repetitive .
( However you can make self similar objects which is still unique in details but similar )

Let's try to explore these ideas in minimalistic way for now.
D Dorian DEFGABCD

Let's look at our 5 flavors inside.
1.DFAC Dmin7
2.EGBD Emin7
3.FACE Fmaj7
4.GBDF G7
5.BDFA Bmin7b5

Let's create a demo minimalistic song which never repeats same thing over and over.

FACE over DFA
GBDF over FAC
BDFA over FAD
EGBD over CAF

This will be our structure.now let's make something

DA on bottom CF on top E
FC on bottom GD on top F
FD on bottom BF on top A
CF on bottom EB on top D

Try different things with this

 

Now that we seen an example with the basic modal language, let's now do an intermediate example.
Using the same concept of ever-changing yet stable music. This time integrating that link between the tonal and modal languages .
Also using D Dorian DEFGABCD

We will use this as our structure .

Cmaj Cadence over Dmin
Amin Cadence over Dmin
Cmaj Cadence over Fmaj
Amin Cadence over Fmaj


DFAC,GBDF,CEGC over DFA
BDFA,EG#BD,ACEF# over FAD
DFAC, GBDF,CEGC over FAC
BDFA,EG#BD,ACEF# over ACF

This is our structure .now let's create a minimalist
Bottom DA middle DAFCGDBFCGEC
Bottom FD middle BFADEBDG#ACF#C
Bottom FC middle DAFCGDBFCGEC
Bottom AF middle BFADEBDG#ACF#C

Take your time this one it's tricky but I think it will change the way you see your musical options

 

So conceptually ,
This modal language is telling us
We can have a main structure .
Let's say Dminor ( Dorian)
That's the package .
Then on this inside that package are a world of unique flavors ( yet exists in the package)
D Dorian
1.DFAC Dmin7 ( the boring flavor lol
2.EGBD Emin7 ( an exotic flavor
3.FACE Fmaj7. ( Uplifting flavor
4.GBDF G7 ( a Darker flavor
5.BDFA Bmin7b5 ( a abrasive flavor

Then the intermediate link between Tonal and modal languages .

1.C major Cadence ( Dmin7 ,G7,Cmaj
2.Aminor Cadence ( Bmin7b5,E7,Amin6

The C cadence over Dmin is a happy floating flavor
The A min Cadence over Dmin is Dark evil flavor

I think you can get the idea , I am mixing in some subjective terms here , but you yourself will have your own identifications with his you perceive these flavors and how you like to use all these options .

It gets to be a lot of fun looking at our options.
Let's take D Dorian
Then this dark flavor
GBDF over DFA, or FAD, or ADF
BDFG over DFA, or FAD, or AFD
DFGB over DFA, or FAD or AFD

Think about how these differences impact you.
Then do same thing for each of the 5 chords.
D Dorian DEFGABCD
1.DFAC
2.EGBD
3.FACE
4 GBDF
5.BDFA

Finally , even though with just have the 5 flavors
We can still play the Ionian and aeolian
DEFGABC
1.DFAC
2.EGBD
3.FACE
4.GBDF
5.ACEG
6.BDFA
7.CEGB

 

Modal music has its limitations .
Those limitations happen at the level of detail of what we play over a structure.
For example if a portion is F Lydian

And looks like this.

BDFA over FAC
DFAC over ACF
GBDF over CFA
FACE over FAC

Our limitation is that we have to play the F Lydian scale
FGABCDEF over our chord progression .

That's not too bad though we still can do so much with it you will be fine in that restriction.

But a way that modal language is not limited
Is that we can connect modes after another to create progressions unrestricted.
This is in contrast with the tonal language .
Which is not restricted or limited at the level of detail where scales are played over structure .
But then Is restricted and limited in the layer of detail around how chord Progressions are made.

So modal language we can connect modes like Legos in a song and as long as we like the sound it's unlimited.

A zoomed out view would look like this.

Flydian/ Clydian dominant/ Gdorian/ Ddorian b2

That may be a zoomed out view of the structure of a whole song .

 

Sometimes people have a hard time figuring out types of motion to create with melody .

Let's look at F Lydian FGABCDEF

1.FACE
2.GBDF
3.ACEG
4.BDFA
5.CEGB
6.DFAC
7.EGBD

Let's practice going up one triad then down the other over top a F note in bass.

CEGAFDEGBCAFGBDECABDFGEC

Next down the first up the second ( over F note bass register ringing out )

GECDFABGEFACDBGACEFDBCEG

Those were traveling low to high.
Now we do same thing except high to low
First up one down other ( over Fnote in Bass)

CEGFDBACEDBGFACBGEDFAGEC

Next down first up second.( Over F in BASS

GECBDFECAGBDCAFEGBAFDCEG

So you see we actually have lots of types of motions to use to express what we need .
Never get trapped feeling like you don't know how to move around .

Let's see our 7th chords this time.

CEGBCAFDEGBDECAFGBDFGECABDFABGEC

BGECDFACDBGEFACEFDBGACEGAFDBCEGB

CEGBAFDBACEGFDBGFACEDBGEDFACBGEC

BGECBDFAGECAGBDFECAFEGBDCAFDCEGB

Practice these over Fmaj in bass and Dmin in bass
Take your time let you mind take in the feeling focus on things that you like about these motions .

 

Last time we looked at motions of 3rds and steps .
This time we are going to look at motions of 5ths and steps .

Let's take a small structure first to see how it works

D Dorian DEFGABCD

Then take this GBDF over DFA

( Real dark right?)
Watch this motion

In BASS play D

On top play

B up to F slide up to G up to D down to
B up to F slide up to G up to D down to B

While D in BASS the whole time .
See how it gives an expansive sound?

Let's now try
BDFA over DFA this time

( An evil brash sound right?
Watch this..)

D in bass rings out
Then in higher register play

D up to A slide up to B up to F down to
D up to A slide up to B up to F down to D

It gives us a really unique way of playing our structure .

This time we are going to combine both
Watch this .
D in bass rings out
In high register play

B up to F slide up to G down fourth to
D up to A slide up to B up to F down to D

Let's now look at the motion of 4ths and steps .

D Dorian DEFGABCD

We will take GBDF over DFA

Play ADF spread out in bass

In upper register play this.

G down to D up to F down to B up to D up to
G down to D up to F slide up to G

Now we are seeing all types of motion we can use .

Let's combine these ones we have looked at while adapting a more open approach .
Sometimes we will be thinking of our 5 chords in D Dorian while other times we move through the scale with the motions we have discussed .
We will make a compelling melody over top ADF in spread bass register ( you can arpeggiate the bass notes in patterns too )

With that 8n our bass here is the upper register melody in D Dorian structure .

G down D up to F up C slide up to D up A down F down D up E up G up B down F slide down E up A down Dup to G down to C down to F

Go slow at first then once you get a feel for it design a few rhythms with the notes let expression guide your note durations and how hard you hot them , how smooth or broken up you play the melody .

 

I just found out that I have an autoimmune disease from the Drs , so the support here really means a lot from you guys thank you

 

So sorry to hear, hang in there, you have my support and I am sure others as well.

 

Sorry to hear that. If you consider the abundance of information you have posted on many threads, maybe think about compiling a book?
While you are likely to spend more time in front of the computer now instead of outside, I am sure someone on here should be able to put you in touch with a publisher.
That also will give you a second party to help organize the layout and contents, should you decide to do that. (The publisher i.e)

 

MMj that is very bad news for you my friend.... i lost my mother several weeks ago and it served to remind me of the harsh realities of being a carbon based organic creature.....i want you to know that i was tempted to abandon this forum many times, but was constrained each time by your compassion and willingness to be patient with sometimes huge nonsense.....you have taught many of us even more than sonic insights...but also how it is to behave with dignity, confidence and care for others....bravo sir....and lots of love from me...spratsky

 

Change your eating habits and start doing yoga seriously. I knew a guy from my city that was supposed to die in his 30s (overweighted and many illnesses), but he changed his lifestyle and lived until almost 90 (he was the most famous yoga teacher in my city).

On this thread, that's not modal music. That's modal jazz. There is big difference. Modal jazz is just a small subset of modal music world.

 

Sorry about that! I pray and vow to dedicate some money and food to the poor for you.

R.I.P. and wish her soul reposes in the heaven.

There is no other solution.

Maybe it's time for him to live and ponder less.

Of like mind on this matter and also others of yours.

 

Yes the biggest changes I have made have been to my diet a drastic overhaul .
It's actually made things lot better so far .
Knock on wood.
Thanks for the kindness part.

As far as the " that's not modal music" part and " that's modal jazz part "
I don't follow you .
I don't understand what you mean by that .
Please go into detail .

Please describe ) if you would )
What way modal music works.
(Or are you referring to the modal music which existed before equal temperament?)
That type of music music is nice to study from a musicology standpoint and maybe some of the general public like to research that era, but it's not very usable in modern times. ( I mean I myself enjoy the musical occult )
However equal temperament is King.
( It's going to be 12 keys and no less for most people most of the time )
And also I feel the important issue these days is getting people to play comfortably and fluently in 12 keys .
I cannot see much of an argument to leave 12 tone et
Its advantages outweigh any disadvantages ( and I don't see any disadvantages )
I actually consider it's " tension" a strength not a weakness. I will tell you why that is.
It is because having the harmonics of a particular note different than the frequencies if other existing notes ,differentiates and gives each equally tempered note a unique stack of harmonics.
The " crunchiness" of equal temperament is a strength for me. Because using frequencies that are contained as harmonics don't end up sounding like individual notes to my ears. It just tweaks timbre to my ears.
Meantone or derivatives
Has none of the strengths of equal teperament
And loads more weaknesses.

 

Last edited: Aug 7, 2019

Late Renaissance interacting-melodic-lines polyphony (modal counterpoint) refers to music from approximately 1550 to 1600. The polyphony of this period is perhaps the purest ever written because it is not defiled by the functional harmony of later periods.

 

Thank you again @MMJ2017 for this awesome information.

 

Yes , I myself enjoy these things .
It's enjoyable to me and interesting .
( But, I also love musicology.)
The average person don't give 2 shits ( in my experience)
I try to see chamber music performances once a week but sometimes it ends up being once every other week.
Those performances which jump from 1500s to 1600s to 1700s to 1800s do not seem to be disruptive at all. ( Besides time in-between performances)

 

Tuning doesn't matter in this case. It's in the usage of modes. And it's specific for the genre (and it has nothing to do with jazz usage) - whether it's church hymns (all of the diatonic modes except locrian), European folk music (same thing - except locrian), "world/fusion" music (uses exotic modes) . A good example is flamenco - plenty of songs can be analysed as based on phrygian and phrygian dominant modes.
Indian and oriental "raga" and "makam/maqam" styles are very traditional modal melodic styles.

And you comment about how average person don't "give a shit" is funny - I once asked a friend that only listens to US/Euro pop type stuff: "Do you know what is jazz?" and he started complaining about noone can know all metal/rock subgenres. . .
For general public jazz is as niche as Renaissance music. (I know people still study it in USA and it has some popularity among older and more educated part of the population in this country, but come on... if you are telling me that in land of "Lil whatever rappers" majority of people listen to and care about jazz, I can only laugh.)
And trying to reduce all modal music to modal jazz, developed in the 50-60s of last century is like trying to reduce all literature - let's say novels or short stories - to some new style from last century.

 

Yes, I understand that you are filtering what information I present here, through your own perspective and own interpretation .
But if you look closely at what I am presenting ,
There is nothing in this thread dependant on specific rhythmic attributes and idiosyncrasies related the jazz .
If you ask me " what is jazz?"
It's a complicated answer .
It depends on what you are asking.
One answer I would give is .
" Jazz is 3 mins of music made in 3 mins time "
Or in other words " jazz is improvisation"
However in the other context
" Jazz is a music with specific historical context developed in a location and all of its specific attributes are tied to human cultural attributes which are independent from music but get superposed on the music once it gets established as a style. "
Like most things there are no quick easy answers (
That are applicable to every context )
However with this thread and the Information I am presenting in this context.
There are no definitions of jazz which are applicable to what I am explaining to people .
They can use any idiosyncrasies
This entire thread can be filter through any instrument, tempo rhythms any timbres etc.
There is nothing specific to jazz which is a requirement to use the information.

The information does presuppose 12 tone et

Next this modal language
Builds the scale from 5ths
FCGDAEB
In a row
FGABCDEF
F Lydian .

Sure you can use E phrygian . ( A deviation)
You can come up with many variations .
Also it's important to understand
Your comment is about people and what they do or cultures.
But the information I am presenting is about modal music itself .
Not saying anything about what others have done in different locations at which times and how they did different things .
That is an entirely different category itself .
" Human beings actions related to making music , including specific choices and desciscions made to deviate from things or come up with other systems"

That is a topic about human beings and what they do ( that thing being making sounds in various ways )

My thread here is about a language itself.
The modal language .
The only presuppositions required are
1.
12 equal slices per octave.
2.
You cannot construct a scale from octaves
Therefore you need to move to the 5th
( Once you do this FCGDAEB F Lydian comes naturally )
In summary , myself presenting this thread about a specific context .
Is not contradicted in any way whatsoever
Just because you are able to think of some other topic itself ( what humans have done with soundwaves)
And other contexts.
This is applicable in every situation of reality .
Do you belive Newton is invalid because of Einstein? Or that quantum mechanics makes gravity invalid ?
No because each context of information is relative to a scope and applicable to a context .
Zooming in to smaller than an atom does not mean the differences in the ways reality works invalidates the mass of a solar system .
Your just focusing on different scales and different context .
Lastly you must have not looked at the specifics of what I am presenting here either .

If you take Flydian
FGABCDEFG
You can 5 unique chords in unity
With Fmajor.

The melody and harmony has no consonance or dissonance .
1.FACE
2.GBDF
3.BDFA
4.DFAC
5.EGBD

Are distinct flavors yet they are in unity
With F major

Next there is a relative minor D Dorian
Which works exactly the same way .

D Dorian DEFGABCD

1.DFAC
2.EGBD
3.FACE
4.GBDF
5.BDFA

Just as with F Lydian
These 5 distinct flavors
Are at unity with D minor.

This is not just using a scale to play over one chord .
This is a fully melodic and harmonic language
Built from 5ths.

" And trying to reduce all modal music to ...."

No YOU are the one trying to reduce things.
( You have built a strawman fallacy )
This thread is talking about modal music
Not
( What people have done or do or come up with )
Can't you see it's 2 different categories?

Your argument is basically saying
"
Well, you cannot be correct mmj2017
Because people have done other things than what you are describing
"
You just shifted your concentration in that context towards a category I call ( human behavior )
And as a subset inside of it ( behavior related to making music )
And then another subset inside if that (behavior related to using things coming up with things )
Now it is in these nested categories you finally get
" Oh. They did different things "
Yes of course they did and do

That's not what I'm talking About
This thread begins in a category
( 12 equal slices per octave)
Then nested inside that another
( Devising a scale based on unity )
That's it all the details fall out that I describe in the way I describe them
It's all based on the way 12 equal slices works.
It's not what people have done or behavior.
The information. I am presenting is about music itself .
You always want to be clear in your thoughts process
Your argument is a bait and switch.
You are constructing this whole narrative about me that is not implicit or explicit .
You are making a bunch of assumptions .
Lastly you are treating this thread " as if it was "
Me making some type of argument
" Hello this is mmj2017
This thread is about reducing what people have done down to an explanation "
That is not the reality of the situation.
I am starting from 12 equal pie slices
Then looking at the way those slices work themselves " in relation to a unity based system "
Thats just " the way music works "
Nothing in this thread is about
" So and do did x and z "

You see the problem with that category
{ Human behavior}
Is that a person can do anything
Just because music works in one way in one context has nothing to do with free will.
( Just look at bad music or roll a billing ball down a keyboard or drop a guitar out if a window and record it) a person can make any choice musically good 9r bad or rebellious or otherwise .
None of that has any connection to any of my threads .
( Except that I encourage people to go through this information about music itself that I present then make any dedcision they want to with it in mind.)
That is the only place " human behavior category
Is connected to my threads on music language.

I am demonstrating a full harmonic and melodic language based on unity. This is called modal language.
( I'm not just showing a chord and a scale that is just a surface level I'm showing a full language based on unity )
Please take consideration by playing through what I demonstrate in this thread follow along yourself to see how it works )
You are clearly not thinking about the specific information I demonstrate , then following along to hear it and to use it .
You are instead just thinking of a boiled down idea ,
Focus on the specifics I demonstrate in the thread .
Then how those specifics add up to be a unique and fully developed harmony and melodic language based on unity ( instead of tension and release )

 

Last edited: Aug 7, 2019

23322
I ask that you consider these implications.

Bmin7b5,E7b9,Amin6,Amin6Dmin7, G7,Cmaj, Cmaj

Over top of a steady FAC in bass

Second.

Bmin7b5,E7b9,Amin6,Amin6Dmin7, G7,Cmaj,Cmaj

Over top of a steady DFA in bass


You see, it is a fact that any combination of white notes can be played on a Fmaj in bass
Or on a Dmin in bass.
This is unity.
The same cannot be said for Emin or Cmaj or many other " genetic use of the term mode.

I am not just saying in this thread
Play a chord then okay a scale over it now you are done.
Sure in that case you can play E phrygian or any chord with any scale.
That tiny aspect of music is not what this thread is about .

BDFA,EG#BD,ACEF#,ACEF# DFAC, GBDF,CEGC , CEGA

Over top FACE ( or DFAC

Is a language of unity .
The depth of how deep this goes and it's implications
Go way beyond concentrating on a chord and a scale for a whole song.

 

Last edited: Aug 7, 2019

Almost all possibilities and experimentations with 12TET have done previously till the end of the 20th century (reached their apogees in different periods) and nothing has left for the new composers and lots of styles have emerged.

Now we're living in the mixing era. In the mixing era everything is possible (obligations disregarded and rules neglected). Today people look at music from:

1. Emotion
2. Sound quality
3. Groove

perspectives. They don't care about the notes and their combinations anymore like our ancestors did. If you take a look at AZ, lots of LOOP packs are being uploaded everyday and people just mix them in whatever way they like. In the sounds-mixing era you can not expect musically great logical, reasoned, organized and systematic coherency. Unfortunately.......

 

Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2019