I've done my best to delete off topic comments.
I already stated before in this thread that if you are not interested, pass your way.

From this point, every off topic comment will have a 2 points warning as a consequence.

Remember that the system will ban you after 5 warning points.

 

mmj could you please elaborate on how you arrive at those scales for those chords please?

 

Is there any limit placed on how many pages you can fill up repeating the same thing and have you read the entire content of this thread?

 

One thing is sure have a limit is my patience.
I asked twice not to write off topic comments here.

For the last time, stop writing off topic comments here.
In this site, this thread is shown as only a title, you are not obliged to read it, nor to participate.
So pass your way.

 

Last edited: Jul 20, 2019

Very important advice FOR ALL: Do not answer to trolls / off topic comments , otherwise you only make the situation worst, and moderation very complicated, or even impossible.

 

Thank you very, very much. I found it meanwhile unbearable to even look at this thread.

I hope you don't consider this off topic.

 

Hello, my friend

Yes gladly.


There are actually several scale options sometimes for a chord but I try to show the ones without avoid notes .

If we think
The 1 chord Cmaj7 CEGB
In key of C major CDEFGABC
Many would think that is the scale which works over it right?
Well it is in a way
Except you have an " avoid note "

CEGBD.F.A
135791113

F is called an avoid note .
This is because it is part of the tritone which makes up the Dominant 7th chord
GBDF
So basically in this case the C major scale is good to use just the F note has to be used on weak beat .
The other 6 notes can be used on the strong beat.

( When you Play the F note in this scale you are hinting at the subdominant and dominant of the key not the tonic.

However there is a way to get 7 note scale for each chord which all 7 notes can be played on the strong beat ( with the chord tones )
Take your chord
Cmaj7 let's say
CEGB
1357
Take notes 135
Add note wholetone above them .
This gives you
C to D, E to F#, G to A then B

CDEF#GABC this has a name Clydian

The #11 is a harmonic which is consonant with the tonic chord ( it does not imply V7th chords tritone )

Let's look at another chord from key of C major .

G7 GBDF this is our tension chord which belongs to C major V7 to I ( tension to release )

This chord when on it you don't want to give away the sound of the tonic you are going to next so you want aVoid note C from the tonic
( I also avoid E as well )

That means you can use G7 Lydian dominant scale
GABC#DEFG

Or a better one is G7 altered
GG#A#BC#D#FG
This one gives you flat5 #5,Flat9,#9

You actually have lot options but I'll show one more for this chord

If we take the Dim7 from the 7th chord 3rd B
Bdim7 BDFG# ( G7b9 no root)
And build another dim7 half step down from it.

A#7, A#C#EG
Combine both dim7 chords

A#BC#DEFGG#
We get G HW diminished scale
This can be used over the G7 chord.

( The notes in it form 4 dom7th chords
G7,A#7,C#7,E7
G7 is V7 of Cmaj
E7, is V7 of Amin7
C#7,is tritone sub of Cmaj
A#7 is tritone sub of Amin7

So this scale can be used
On any of these 4 Dom chords in key of c Maj or rel Amin.

If we look at our ii chord
Dmin7, DFAC

And use that rule about wholetone above 135
DFAC
1357
EGB
DEFGABCD so D Dorian all 7 notes work well over chord
( Except B note can be sketchy I recommend lining it up to appear at end when transitioning from Dmin7 to G7 when you changing over to G7.


Now the relative Amin cadence
Bmin7b5 BDFA, E7b9 EG#BDF, Amin6,ACEF#

BDFA
1357
Same rule for now
C#EG
BC#DEFGAB ( Locrian #9 ) all 7 notes fit over this 2 chord subdominant .

E7b9 we can use same like with G7 in Cmaj

E HW diminished scale
EFGG#A#BC#DE

Or most common we can use the 5th mode of A harmonic minor ABCDEFG#A

Then our tonic Amin6 ACEF#
We use A melodic minor ABCDEF#G#A

( With minor cadence couple rules )rules means guidelines not forced to follow .

Use A harmonic minor on V7 chord
Use Amelodic minor on I tonic chord .

 

Continuation of explanation of the scales which belong to chords

Now we looked at 7 note scales which are based on " upper extensions"
That type of scale is where all 7 notes are compatible on strong beats of the specific chord .

However there is another type different scale worth mentioning

The scale of chords.

What you do is create a special scale which contains a V to I function
( Tonic being the chord you start off with )
You design the scale such that all the notes land on string beats and each note of the scale spells out an inversion of your chord this way you can
harmonize the scale .

It's easier if I show you.

Take CEGB from C major KEY

We want make a scale of chords from this .
First for major type chord you turn it into
I6 chord maj6th
C6 CEGA ( you'll see why that is soon)
Next half step down build a dim7 chord.

Bdim7 BDFG#B ( this remember from before
Means 4 dominant7 chords )
But for now it represents a G7b9 no root

Now we have our tonic C6 CEGA
We have our V7 chord B dim7
We create the scale of chords by unfolding these chords inversions .
So first the 2 chords in row
BDFG#.....V7
CEGA.........I7

Now we unfold their inversions by placing first note at end of chord.
BDFG#
CEGA
DFG#B
EGAC
FG#BD
GACE
G#BDF
ACEG
BDFG#

Now we have a V7 to I motion repeated

We can also see a scale emerge
CDEFGG#ABC
See how our tonic chord tones line up on string beat and the V7 chord tones line up off the beat ( weak beat?)
So not only we have a useable chord for each note of the scale we get even number note lining up on the correct beats .

Now we need to look at the inversion which starts on the A
ACEG Amin7 , Cmaj6 CEGA

They the same this means the same scale of chords is used for major type chords or minor7 type chords just starting from different location in the scale of chords
However we need to create a scale of chords for every type of chord type we encounter in music .

This means
Maj
Min7
Min6
Min7b5
Dominant 7
Dim7

And I will show you by altering the notes slightly you get a scale of chords for every chord type.

So we started C6 CEGA
This is Maj type chords
Then in the inversion it becomes
Amin7 ACEG
So far same scale chords for both those types chords
Now to make a scale chords for min6 and min7b5
Type chords
We alter only one note by one semitone .
C6 CEGA and Amin7 ACEG

Amin7ACEG becomes Amin6 ACEF#

That one alteration gives us

Amin6 ACEF# and F#Min7b5 F#ACE

Now we have min6 chord type and min7b5 type

The rest we haven't changed altered stays same watch


ACEF#.....here is min6
BDFG#
CEF#A
DFG#B
EF#AC
FG#BD
F#ACE ....here is min7b5
G#BDF
ACEF#

Now we have V7 to I motion repeating
Where I tonic is either min6 type chord
Or min7b5 type chord depending where you start from as notated.

So far we have seen scale of chords for these chord types.
Major
Minor
Min6
Minor7b5

Now we need dominant 7th type chords.
Going back to C6 CEGA
We can simply make A go up A#
Now we have
C7 CEGA#

The rest stays same

CEGA#
DFG#B
EGA#C
FG#BD
GA#CE
G#BDF
A#CEG
BDFG#
CEGA#


Now we have covered these types scales of chord
Major
Minor
Min6
Min7b5
Dominant7

This gives you a way to use this scale of chords on every type of function you will encounter.

Also can show you Dim7 scale of chords .

BDFG#
We create another dim7 chord half step down from this one.
A#C#EG
BDFG#
C#EGA#
DFG#B
EGA#C#
FG#BD
GA#C#E
G#BDF
A#C#EG

This creates a way to use the WH and HW diminished

Now we have literally every type of chord you ever encounter can use scale of chords
A scale which lines up strong beats also with harmony for each note in that scale
For every chord you ever encounter any time in any style of music.

 

Last edited: Jul 20, 2019

Continuation of scales

It's worth noting that the level of detail keeps expanding with possibilities.

For instance building off the " scale of chords "
Concept further
( Scale where chord tones strong beat )

You have after that ( say in the key of c major)
The
Chromatic C major Scale

Cc#Dd#EgFF#Gg#AA#BdC.

That is chromatic c major low to high .

Here is the chromatic C major scale high to low backwards.

CdBa#Ag#Gf#FgEd#Dc#C

Now you can make a chromatic version of every scale .

Let's say as discussed previously
We in key c major
First chord is Cmaj7 CEGB or C6 CEGA
We want a 7 note scale " upper extensions"
Such that all 7 notes fit on the strong beat.
C Lydian CDEF#GABC

Now that we have this create a chromatic C Lydian scale.

Cc#Dd#EgFf#Gg#Aa#BdC. ( Nope wrong !

Now we have all our chord tones and upper extensions landing on the strong beats.

Note this is starting to show you the true number of options available in the music language .
You have almost unlimited options once you learn all the components of the language .
____________________
Oh damn I messed that up.

I have to correct that chromatic c Lydian scale .
Let's say you were doing it like this and you made mistake how can we get it right?

Let's take chromatic F Lydian scale first .

Ff#Gg#Aa#BdCc#Dd#EgF

Now follow this shape except starting from C

Cc#Dd#EfF#aGg#Aa#BdC

Now we have all the chord tones and upper extensions for our Cmaj7 CEGB
Lining up correctly on the strong beats


It's worth noting
You can mix parts of the Chromatic C Lydian scale with what you would play regular Lydian scale , or even scale of chords
Mix with guide tones 3rd 7th
Common tones
Mix those with chord arpeggios in different ways.
Now you are building a large vocabulary.

 

Last edited: Jul 20, 2019

Secrets of music ( playing techniques writing )

We going to look at our several options ( we eventually combine together interesting ways)

Start off with key of C cadence to C

Structure is.
Dmin7, G7 alt, Cmaj6

First chord
1.Dmin7 ...DFAC....scale Dorian ..DEFGABCD...


1.guide tones 3rd and 7th define the sound of DFAC
2.common tones between the structure
Ex.
DFAC and GBDF

If we try match up things

DFAC , DFAB

D...F.....A....B
5th,7,9th,3rd

So here we using common tones of Dmin7 to transition to G7 chord GBDF

DFAC to DFAB

3.arpeggios
DFACE
13579
GBDFA
13579

4. "Upper extension " scale ( 7 note scale in strong beats.
Ex
G7 altered is the notes of
G#Melodic minor
GAltered is starting in 7th degree of G#melodic minor .

GG#A#BC#D#FG

5.Triad pairs

If we take DFAC and it's scale DEFGABCD
But make a 7 note chord
DFACEGB
Remove middle note
DFA,EGB( first triad pair
Next
Put first note at end
FACEGBD
Now remove middle note
FAC,GBD ( second triad pair
Next
Put first note at end
ACEGBDF
Remove middle note
ACE,BDF( third triad pair

Continue onward to get all your triad pairs for this chord ( 7 note upper extensions scale

6.scale of chords ( as demonstrated previous comment box )

7.Chromatic version of 7 note upper extension scale
Ex.
DFAC scale D Dorian DEFGABCD
Chromatic D Dorian scale is
Dd#EgFf#Gg#Aa#BdCc#D

8. Grace notes , guide tones, enclosures
We use our chromatic notes and scale notes to setup a Melody for a strong landing note.
( Like a cadence is for harmony Dmin7,G7,Cmaj
Setups to land on C Maj )
We can use the same concept for a Melody as well .

Look at this chain of notes.

FF#GG#

F and G are the 7th and root of G7 GBDF
We going to use the G# and F# in an enclosure
Such that the strong beats outline the 7th and root of G7 GBDF
To do this
We need to make first beat a rest silent note
Then start melody on the " off beat"
R indicates a rest on string beat Bold indicates strong beats , and reg text indicates weak beat.

Here is our first enclosure example using those notes

RG#FF#G

You see we start above go down below and travel back up

This enclosure sets up our last note
Try alternating between the chord G7 GBDF
And this enclosure .
Then alternate between arpeggio GBDFA
And the enclosure .

9. Now we combine each one of these to create our own unique individualized music where tens of thousands of melodies can be made stacked in layers at different rhythms timings textures layers
To create anything you want you get to decide.

 

Last edited: Jul 20, 2019

Example of combining 2 enclosures with chord tones and triad pairs to make a Melody out of a chord inside of a songs structure .

Key of C major

Cmaj7 .CEGB...C Lydian scale .CDEF#GABC

First we create our triad pair
Start 7 note chord
CEGBDF#A
Remove middle note

CEG,DF#A
Now we have our triad pair to use in the melody .

We will use our 5th note and 3rd note create enclosures with.
G note enclosure
RG#FF#G

E note enclosure
RFDD#E

Combine
These two first into melody listen to it over Cmaj chord
CG#FF#GFDD#EG#FF#GFDD#EDC long ring out

Play that to see how the enclosure acts as a building block to be combined with other building blocks like Legos

Let's now make a triad pair based melody .

1.CEG,DF#A { triad pair

From low to high EGCD ( now descend) AF#D

Let's take this exact melody and combine with the enclosures from before

EGCDAF#DG#FF#GFDD#ECF#DGFDD#EGCDAF#D


Do you see we can make tens of thousands of melodies out of a main structure like

Cmaj7 CEGB...C.lydian.CDEF#GABC

It's really limitless

Let's see another .


GCEF#DACEGAF#DAFDD#EG#FF#GAF#DAC


Let's make a building block ( larger one though

F#DAGCFDD#E

This is now it's own building block try it alternating
With Cmaj chord

When you create a building block
( Legos)
You want to be able to loop it .

Take this.

F#DAF#GCEG ( down then up

Loop it

F#DAF#GCEGF#DAF#GCEGF#DAF#GCEG.

 

Last edited: Jul 20, 2019

The most common scales .

Most of the time we only need 3 scales !

The Major scale ( and it's modes )
{ Natural minor is included here}

The harmonic minor scale
(And it's modes )

The melodic minor scale
( And it's modes )


Less commonly but also used is

The Diminished scales
( whole half and half whole dim.)
Used on dominant or subdominant

The Wholetone scales
( Used on dominant )

The chromatic scale
( Used for Grace notes, leading tones, enclosures, embellishments, button hooks )

We also have our "scales of chords"
This will be its own topic

That's about it .

( Sure there are many others , however they not very commonly used .)

Not only that you will be able to easily modify these main scales to be some exotic scale once you get comfortable over time.)

 

Last edited: Jul 21, 2019

Scale practice.

We going to look at the ways to use a scale and the connections it makes.

Starting with C major scale ( I know I know...

CDEFGABC

We need to practice several aspects so that making real music we have all the connections available to us.

To start look at the 7th chords in the scale

1.CEGB
2.DFAC
3.EGBD
4.FACE
5.GBDF
6.ACEG
7.BDFA

We are going to start off with part A triads

1.play Triad up then down each

CEGAFDEGBCAFGBDECABDFGEC

Now reverse it to be down then up.

GECDFABGEFACDBGACEFDBCEG


Now play descending down then up

GECBDFECAGBDCAFEGBAFDCEG

Now play descending up then down

CEGFDBACEDBGFACBGEDFAGEC

This is our combinations going up and down the scale and variations.

I hope this part A TRIADS variations is beginning to show you that much more can be done with scales then running up and down sweeps ( boring)

 

Last edited: Jul 21, 2019

radioative if u think MMJ work is a tutorial...then i believe you have already missed the boat my friend...MMj is trying to peel back the actual layers of comprehension involved in sonic structure...to assist us all to improve our ability to use these tools.....

 

The study of the structure of music begins with the classification of all aspects of music into five basic categories:

1. Sound
2. Harmony
3. Melody
4. Rhythm
5. Form

• The sound of the music is the result of the voices and/or instruments used, the texture of the music, and the effects of dynamics. In music, texture refers to the way the melodic, rhythmic, and harmonic materials of a composition are woven together.

• The study of the harmony of a composition includes the harmonic patterns and progressions, the tonal implications of the harmony, and how the harmony is sustained and elaborated.

• The study of the melody of a composition includes the prominent melodic lines and their repetition and variation, the range and contour of melodic material, the phrase structure of the melodic lines, the scale basis for melodic materials, and the relationship and relative prominence of the various melodic ideas that appear together in a work.

• The study of the rhythm in a composition includes the nature of rhythmic activity, the tempo and tempo changes, the density of rhythmic activity, and the harmonic rhythm or rate of harmonic change throughout a composition.

• Form refers to the larger shape of the composition. Form in music is the result of the interaction of the four structural elements previously described.

These structural elements seldom function in isolation in a piece of music.

 

excellent radioactive.......now you getting the idea......you take the basics MMJ can do the peeling back and delving into the gizzards.......great team work

 

i feel sure MMj will welcome the help, although it might be better to start your own thread....something like....music 101 ??

 

I am afraid he have shown that he is more interested in confrontation and aggresion rather than collaboration and understanding, but I might be wrong. I hope I am. My feeling though, is that he for some reason can’t stand the study of harmony by itself and that he is determined on disrupting this form of education and learning, not adding value to it in a civil way. I guess we’ll find out. If I am wrong I will gladly apologize and support it.

 

Last edited: Jul 22, 2019

His understanding is broken and fragmented also.
He understands some slivers with lack of knowledge in between causing a distorted take on music . ( Which we all have that problem at done point)
But the difference between different people's approach ( when at that point)
Is what matters .
( For example a humble approach recognizing that one is early in in a long journey work and study to fill in missing gaps and improve overtime when learning the very full and complex subject of music )
Compared to a different approach of a person who knowledge is fragmented and they take a abrasive cocky approach of anytime they see something they cannot quite make sense of , turn it into behaving rude and accusations .
( Music is sufficiently complex to the degree every person on their journey if learning it, is going to feel intimidated at times. Feel confused about something.need clarification. Needing to see how it fits and connect s to the peices of knowledge they already have.( No way to avoid this journey music is an advanced subject like many things in life which spear different on the surface than it does at the deeper level.)
I invite us all to reflect on co-operation .
Vs conflict in terms of communication of information related to advancing oneself in the area of studying music ( such to develop an ever more clear and presice picture of how music itself actually works .)
To have an open mind , ready to be surprised at any moment .ready to be transformed the moment a new important price of the information puzzle that is music language comes your way.
This journey of dedication towards you learning the way music works , has an impact on every single musical skill you have developed thus far.
Even though there will always be a new thing which intimidates you , seems overwhelming, confusing
With a bit of time and effort you will overcome that challenge and become comfortable and gain wisdom unimaginable just a short time ago .

 

Secrets of music ( the connection of keys)
------------------------
If you start off with a pie that has 12 equal pieces .
And you want to take 4 at a time ( a 4 note chord )
And if you equally space these 4 peices ( a chord)
You can have 3 sets of 4 equal spaced pieces.

The 4 equal slices we are talking in music is called the diminished 7th chord ( stacking minor 3rds(
There are 3 diminished 7 the chords
In all of music .
If you bunch notes together as close as you can
To make a dim7 chord. And move up semitone make another dim7 chords move it up one more semitone again and play the 3rd dim7 chord you have now played all 12 notes , divided into 3 dim7 chords.
This means you just played all 12 dominant 7 chords in music .
That tiny area you just played , contains the cadence of every single major and minor key

This idea of understanding how to play all keys in every small area on your instruments. Is the secret to mastering several important aspects of melody and harmony .

Let's begin with the dim7 chord which connects directly to C Maj - A rel minor key .

A short cut is to start in your major or minor tonic go down semi tone .
Say C Maj
Down to B, now stack 4 minor 3rds
BDFG#. Bdim7

Say Aminor
Down to G# ,now stack 4 minor thirds
G#BDF G#dim7.

Let's compare the 2 dim7 chords .
BDFG# Bdim7
G#BDF. G#dim7

These are the same chord different inversion .
Let's make all 4 inversions .

BDFG#....Bdiminished7th
DFG#B.....Ddiminished7th
FG#BD....Fdiminished7th
G#BDF....G#diminished7th

Because we have a symmetrical chord ( stack minor 3rds) it is true that these 4 names equally describe any inversion of this chord .

Let's look at this chord connection to Cmaj6 ( tonic of c Maj key)

BDFG# to CEGA

If we look at V7 of Cmajor the dominant chord
We get this GBDF ( but what is G# in a G7? )
G# is the flat 9th ( A is ninth)
So if we replace G7b9 ( GBDFG#)
With removing the root note . We get
BDFG# Bdim7.
This means Bdim7,Ddim7,Fdim7,G#dim7
All resolve strongly to Cmaj ( C6 here)

Let's now go back to the relative minor of the key A minor .
It's V7 dominant chord is E7 ( EG#BD)
Let's look at G#dim7 (G#BDF) resolving to Amin6

G#BDF to ACEF# ( Amin6 or Aminmaj ACEG# are the tonic of Amelodic minor )

Let's compare E7 to G#dim7

E7b9 ( like before with G7b9)
Is EG#BDF
Well if again we remove the root note we get
G#BDF G#dim7.
So Bdim7,Ddim7,Fdim7,G#dim7 resolves strongly to Amin ( A Nat minor,Harmonic minor,or melodic minor )

You should be wondering now how can Bdim7
BDFG# be a G7b9, an E7b9 at same time?
How can that make any sense!?
We it's because a dim7 chord literally is
4 dominant 7 chords in one condensed down
( 4 rootless 7thflat9 chords
Let's see this

BDFG# ( G7b9 GBDFG#
DFG#B ( A#7b9 A#DFG#B
FG#BD ( C#7b9 C#FG#BD
G#BDF ( E7b9 EG#BDF

End of part I