Music Theory Distilled

Discussion in 'Education' started by rootwits, Jul 14, 2019.

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  1. a6378877

    a6378877 Noisemaker

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    Oh wow. C E G is a major triad chord. This is actually not up for debate. How do you report someone to a moderator? This guy is clearly trolling and spreading erroneous data in an effort to mislead people for his own entertainment. He's trying to see what he can get away with. Definitely disregard any of his posts. It's 90% gibberish with 10% fact. It's definitely intentional. Just a heads up.
     
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  2. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    a6378877
    With your 2 whole posts
    Calling someone a troll ?
    Clown.
     
  3. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Audiosexual

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    A nice (quick) tutorial about chords.

    Is the video below about Jazz theory? - yes and no
    • Clearly the guy is a Jazz enthusiast
    • The approach to identifying and labelling chords is what the Jazz community uses
    • But 95% + of this is what everyone else uses too - so it remains genre-neutral, and good to watch even if you hate Jazz.
    My comments, opinions, and biases...
    I think explanations of music theory shown on a piano keyboard are great even for people like me that can't play piano well and are not trying to be pianists.
    I recommend "don't be put off if Jazz is not your thing". Jazz is not my favourite genre either, but I still like this music theory video. My listening pleasure from Jazz is quite limited; a small subset of Jazz, I really love; and a large body of Jazz I fail to enjoy at all. But I think insights into 'genre neutral nuts and bolts of music' are often explained really really well by Jazz musicians.
    and that's what's going on here.

    He does deliver in giving a well thought out rapid tour through these topics and for most of it if you leave out the word Jazz from his description, it all works fine for any genre.

    I personally think there are alternative ways of exploring and labelling all those altered extensions he talks about, but those ways would not be regarded as mainstream, whereas his Jazz labelling is mainstream, so it's nice to understand that anyway.

    (from the youtube page)
    IN THIS LESSON:
    0:32 Jazz Chords
    2:06 Types of 7th Chord
    3:31 Chord Extensions (9 11 13)
    5:35 Altered Extensions (b9 #9 #11 b13)
    7:16 Chord Voicings
    8:23 The ii-V-I Progression
    11:06 Partial ii-V-Is
    12:55 The Minor ii-V-I
    16:03 Jazz Scales

     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  4. 23322332

    23322332 Rock Star

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    I am certainly not stupid enough to download tuning files from strangers online, so I didn't offer such thing; but I offered you information to create for yourself such file and check for yourself with ANY timbre in ANY octave, a test that I wouldn't waste time on to provide audio examples.
    It has nothing to do with any calculations, idk what are you talking about?
    Are you too stupid to copy and paste something into txt file and then rename it?


    To MMJ: you don't use enharmonic notation freely outside of atonal or 12 tone music (or ethnic music, but this is very niche use), that's why you are criticized. You should be naming notes according to major or minor scales, generated by circle of fifths, that's a convention even in your favourite jazz.

    About II-V-I or IIm-V-I - this is a jazz convention and certainly not describing much music outside of it. It's even quite rare progression in early Western music.
    It 100 % implies meantone temperament, because even in other possible Western temperaments we have two types of whole tones that will need accidental that do not exist in standard Western music theory. The lack of II(m)-V-I in early music implies that meantone was not used, but something more accurate or people were just copying progressions from the time of just intonation (church music etc).

    Example for meantone temperaments - 12 equal, 19, 26 (this one is somewhat bad), 31, 43, 50, 55.
    12 tone subsets of 19, 31, 43 and 55 were certainly used (at least in theory) for tuning the harpsichords, organs and pianos in the past. In practice they tuned by ear, so we cannot be sure for actual tunings - they didn't have any way to measure the intervals accurately.
    34 equal has two sizes of whole tones and the next more accurate tuning is 53 equal. Both of these do not fall under standard Western music theory, despite being way more harmonically perfect than any meantone temperament. You cannot play II(m)-V-I in them without enharmonic modulations, which are pain in the ass - any fretless player or singer can confirm.
     
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  5. Olymoon

    Olymoon MODERATOR Staff Member

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    Again, off topic comments have been cleared.
     
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  6. orbitbooster

    orbitbooster Audiosexual

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    Wow. Thank you, I was beginning to feel pretty alone in space...:wink:
    By the way, I hope you didn't considered me a pro, because I'm not, in any possible way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  7. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

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    And thanks, again. :bow:
     
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  8. TaxiDriver

    TaxiDriver Platinum Record

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    @sir jack spratsky
    I am asking you kindly:
    1. Don't quote me! Never, ever again.
    and not so kindly:
    2. Don't you dare to quote me out of context with a clear goal to attack others!

    To clear up things: my strong opinion is that @orbitbooster is FAR from being ignorant (I don't know why do you even have to insult ppl?!). In fact, he is right. He provided enough evidence about yourself manipulating my post, so I will stop here.

    ===
    Back on topic:
    @orbitbooster
    Because many people (not you!) are confused, why the right use of accidentals is so important (as you correctly pointed out), I will provide a concise explanation. But before that, I will double check and discuss the matter (with at least two Uni Prof..), because IMO we can't afford to make mistakes or being incomplete, when giving information to others (that is a responsibility). I will also provide examples (score, audio,..) because i think that is the way it should be done.. and it's more fun. Looking forward to have a civilized discussion after that. Give me a day or two.. :wink:
    ..coz now I'm going to go to make some killer summer tunes! :cool::disco::drummer:
    (better take a screencap of my post - seems that will become a necessity..) :hahaha:
     
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  9. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    It's easy " problem" to find solution for .
    Ask a question.
    " How many equal divisions in one octave range?"
    Is it 21?
    (
    21 would be
    FCGDAEB F#C#G#D#A#E#B#
    FbCbGbDbAbEbBb

    No it's not 21.

    How about 17?
    CDEFGBA
    C# D # F # G# A#
    Db Eb Gb Ab Bb

    Is it 17 notes per octave equally spaced?
    Nope. Sure Is not

    It's 12.
    12 equally spaced notes .
    7 are natural
    CDEFGAB ( FCGDAEB
    How many is left?
    5 is left
    F#C#G#D#A# ( what about E#? Nope B#? Nope
    12 notes
    F#C#G#D#A#
    Is also
    Gb Db Ab Eb Bb

    So we demonstrably solved the problem !
    There are 12 divisions of the octave .
    7 of which are natural FCGDAEB
    5 of which are both sharps and flats for
    Each of these 5 notes
     
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  10. farao

    farao Rock Star

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    Are you seriously going to provide audio examples regarding the correct use of accidentals when it comes to equivalent notes? That is great, can’t wait.
     
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  11. 23322332

    23322332 Rock Star

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    And then he provides violin recording, using something other than 12 equal (just like in real music). If developers of sample libraries don't autotune to 12 equal, we will get "bad" samples like stuff from Spitfire/8dio/etc having "detuned" round-robins in certain tonalities. It's just one of the reasons why sample library software will never touch the real thing - they don't even play in midi tonality!
     
  12. TaxiDriver

    TaxiDriver Platinum Record

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    Of course, why wouldn't I play what's written? :) I will try to find examples from compositions of renowned composers, especially where there are flats and sharps in e.g. the same bar or passage or chord.. And try to explain, why the notes are written that way. I think there's no harm listening to it.:winker:
     
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  13. farao

    farao Rock Star

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    Looking forward to it.
     
  14. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    What does the context you are describing have to do with typing notes of a scale in a forum from a phone with no flat symbol?
    There no connection here .
    You are using a bait and switch.
    Nobody said you should use
    Other than standard accidentals in hand written scores or printed sheet music.
    You thought they did?
    I never knew that is was difficult to fathom
    The difference between these two different circumstances.
    You are using a "strawman" fallacy .
    You are talking as if I presented an argument for which I have not. Than attacking this fake argument .
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    Information and arguments and views are always context dependant . It's important to carefully consider all details of the situation to make sure you are not misunderstanding something.

    Let's see if you did this accidentally or on purpose .

    The correct argument to address .
    Is in the context of a text based forum with no flat button typing information from a phone .
    It is common to use the # pound key as sharps .

    You see the information , gives you a way to know which of the 12 divisions in an octave is being used.
    Yes if you are handwriting it's easy if your printing sheet music no issues .
    Now anytime you see
    F# Gflat
    C# Dflat
    G# Aflat
    D# Eflat
    A# Bflat

    You should understand 2 names for one sound .
    One slice of 12 parts.

    Instances of long strings of notes being shown ( demonstrating music language )
    The enharmonics accidentals
    Are not the meaning and thing of value there .
    The meaning and thing of value is the information about the musical language .
    (
    Not arbitrary names ,or your specific preference for your eyes to see an accidental .
    That is no value in the very specific situation .

    However in an entirely different situation say
    Writing a score but hand or, typing sheet music in a notation application .
    It's easy to hit the flat or sharp button
    To have the sheet music in the staff display the standard ways .
    I'm just surprised this has to be spoken about like this . I thought this entirely " went without saying"
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
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  15. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    A secret that will transform your music!
    ( It's directly about the thread topic )
    Take the key of C major.
    Now write out the 7 triads.
    1.CEG
    2.DFA.
    3.EGB.
    4.FAC
    5 GBD.
    6.ACE.
    7.BDF

    Part I

    Starting from C going up.
    Play first triad forward then next backwards.

    CEGAFDEGBCAFGBDECABDFGEC

    Part II

    Starting from C going backwards
    Play first triad forwards then next one backwards.

    CEGFDBACEDBGFACBGEDFAGEC

    Part III

    Starting from C going forwards
    Play first triad backwards then next forward.

    GECDFABGEFACDBGACEFDBCEG

    Part IV
    Starting from C going backwards
    Play first triad backwards then next forward

    GECBDFECAGBDCAFEGBAFDCEG

    I hope this gives you inspiration for seeing what can be done with your scales my friends .
     
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  16. famouslut

    famouslut Audiosexual

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    I think it's just simply to avoid confusion, repeated A A A etcs, so you'd write A G# instead of A Ab (i guess there's a lower case b on ur phone?). That's how I was taught anyhow.
     
  17. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Shouldn't be too much confusion.
    12 slices of a pie .
    The names are arbitrary .( You could make each note a distinct color)

    F# = Gflat.......note in-between F and G
    C#= Dflat............note...in between C and D
    G#= Aflat............note..in-between.GandA
    D#=Eflat...........note..in-between...DandE
    A#=Bflat...........note..in..between....AandB

    Study this pattern it's just 5 notes that have 2 names

    Those the only notes that equal each other
    So if you did see A A# they always 2 different notes
    But I get some people not familiar enough to register
    A#= Bflat
    It's important to know the enharmonics .
    ( It's not getting into any depth yet . Compared to what can actually get confusing )
    aa#bcc#dd#eff#gg#a

    See why using a already existing b note as also a flat sign can be a problem on a text format?

    This whole issue is not important or valuble
    Compared to the musical language
    ( Dealing with the 12 slices how they work )

    Can think of it as

    1 1# 2 2# 3 4 4# 5 5# 6 6# 7 1
    ...2b.....3b........5b.....6b....7b......
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  18. Ad Heesive

    Ad Heesive Audiosexual

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    Or the none-secret access to better resources on Triad Pairs

    [1] https://mattwarnockguitar.com/triad-pairs
    This one was written for guitarists, but Triad Pairs are useful for all musicians.
    Pianists or Saxophone players, etc, can all profitably explore this guitar-oriented discussion of Triad Pairs.

    [2] Jazz books have been doing this (really well) for almost 100 years.
    So, here's a link to just two examples.
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/0f1kdvgjy9ju16b/Triad_Pairs.rar/file

    [3] Or just type 'Triad Pairs' in YouTube search and find dozens of well presented resources.

    Am I now going to be accused of Trolling for simply identifying better resources?
    :dunno:
     
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  19. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Why you talking about triad pairs ?
    I mean I like that topic ,but do you think I was talking about triad pairs in my last comment?

    I didn't talk about triad pairs at all in that comment.
    I only talked about the C major scale 7 TRIADS.
    You didn't recognize that homie?

    All I talked about was
    C major scale.
    Then the 7 TRIADS
    1.CEG
    2.DFA.
    3.EGB
    4.FAC
    5.GBD
    6.ACE
    7.BDF

    See how that is not triad pairs.
    It's the 7 TRIADS in c major .

    I didn't speak about jazz at all.
    None of your links match to the subject I talked about.
    You didn't read my comment bro?
    Everything okay meng?
    You know how different 3 note TRIADS are from 7 note chords right?
    My comment only dealt with the most basic level of the key . The 7 TRIADS
    Because that is relevant to this thread .

    Triad Pairs has to do with expanding the level of detail of the key from 7 TRIADS to 7 note chords for each of the 7 chords.
    Just take your time reading the comments my friend before impulsively responding .
    You have made a mistake due to ego but be humble my friend .
    You are so quick to construct a syntactic insult.
    That you made a mistake about the content .
    It's usually better to not have preconceived notions guide your behavior and choices.
    You accidentally made another " strawman argument"

    You have to post links for 7 TRIADS of a key
    And create a semantic insult for that topic home slice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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