The Secrets of Music. Hard to Find Info Techniques

Discussion in 'Education' started by MMJ2017, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. Olymoon

    Olymoon MODERATOR Staff Member

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    I've done my best to delete off topic comments.
    I already stated before in this thread that if you are not interested, pass your way.

    From this point, every off topic comment will have a 2 points warning as a consequence.

    Remember that the system will ban you after 5 warning points.
     
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  2. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    mmj could you please elaborate on how you arrive at those scales for those chords please?
     
  3. Jake Newell

    Jake Newell Noisemaker

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    Is there any limit placed on how many pages you can fill up repeating the same thing and have you read the entire content of this thread?
     
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  4. Olymoon

    Olymoon MODERATOR Staff Member

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    One thing is sure have a limit is my patience.
    I asked twice not to write off topic comments here.

    For the last time, stop writing off topic comments here.
    In this site, this thread is shown as only a title, you are not obliged to read it, nor to participate.
    So pass your way.
     
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  5. Olymoon

    Olymoon MODERATOR Staff Member

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    Very important advice FOR ALL: Do not answer to trolls / off topic comments , otherwise you only make the situation worst, and moderation very complicated, or even impossible.
     
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  6. No Avenger

    No Avenger Moderator Staff Member

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    Thank you very, very much. I found it meanwhile unbearable to even look at this thread.

    I hope you don't consider this off topic. :winker:
     
  7. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Hello, my friend

    Yes gladly.


    There are actually several scale options sometimes for a chord but I try to show the ones without avoid notes .

    If we think
    The 1 chord Cmaj7 CEGB
    In key of C major CDEFGABC
    Many would think that is the scale which works over it right?
    Well it is in a way
    Except you have an " avoid note "

    CEGBD.F.A
    135791113

    F is called an avoid note .
    This is because it is part of the tritone which makes up the Dominant 7th chord
    GBDF
    So basically in this case the C major scale is good to use just the F note has to be used on weak beat .
    The other 6 notes can be used on the strong beat.

    ( When you Play the F note in this scale you are hinting at the subdominant and dominant of the key not the tonic.

    However there is a way to get 7 note scale for each chord which all 7 notes can be played on the strong beat ( with the chord tones )
    Take your chord
    Cmaj7 let's say
    CEGB
    1357
    Take notes 135
    Add note wholetone above them .
    This gives you
    C to D, E to F#, G to A then B

    CDEF#GABC this has a name Clydian

    The #11 is a harmonic which is consonant with the tonic chord ( it does not imply V7th chords tritone )

    Let's look at another chord from key of C major .

    G7 GBDF this is our tension chord which belongs to C major V7 to I ( tension to release )

    This chord when on it you don't want to give away the sound of the tonic you are going to next so you want aVoid note C from the tonic
    ( I also avoid E as well )

    That means you can use G7 Lydian dominant scale
    GABC#DEFG

    Or a better one is G7 altered
    GG#A#BC#D#FG
    This one gives you flat5 #5,Flat9,#9

    You actually have lot options but I'll show one more for this chord

    If we take the Dim7 from the 7th chord 3rd B
    Bdim7 BDFG# ( G7b9 no root)
    And build another dim7 half step down from it.

    A#7, A#C#EG
    Combine both dim7 chords

    A#BC#DEFGG#
    We get G HW diminished scale
    This can be used over the G7 chord.

    ( The notes in it form 4 dom7th chords
    G7,A#7,C#7,E7
    G7 is V7 of Cmaj
    E7, is V7 of Amin7
    C#7,is tritone sub of Cmaj
    A#7 is tritone sub of Amin7

    So this scale can be used
    On any of these 4 Dom chords in key of c Maj or rel Amin.

    If we look at our ii chord
    Dmin7, DFAC

    And use that rule about wholetone above 135
    DFAC
    1357
    EGB
    DEFGABCD so D Dorian all 7 notes work well over chord
    ( Except B note can be sketchy I recommend lining it up to appear at end when transitioning from Dmin7 to G7 when you changing over to G7.


    Now the relative Amin cadence
    Bmin7b5 BDFA, E7b9 EG#BDF, Amin6,ACEF#

    BDFA
    1357
    Same rule for now
    C#EG
    BC#DEFGAB ( Locrian #9 ) all 7 notes fit over this 2 chord subdominant .

    E7b9 we can use same like with G7 in Cmaj

    E HW diminished scale
    EFGG#A#BC#DE

    Or most common we can use the 5th mode of A harmonic minor ABCDEFG#A

    Then our tonic Amin6 ACEF#
    We use A melodic minor ABCDEF#G#A

    ( With minor cadence couple rules )rules means guidelines not forced to follow .

    Use A harmonic minor on V7 chord
    Use Amelodic minor on I tonic chord .
     
  8. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Continuation of explanation of the scales which belong to chords

    Now we looked at 7 note scales which are based on " upper extensions"
    That type of scale is where all 7 notes are compatible on strong beats of the specific chord .

    However there is another type different scale worth mentioning

    The scale of chords.

    What you do is create a special scale which contains a V to I function
    ( Tonic being the chord you start off with )
    You design the scale such that all the notes land on string beats and each note of the scale spells out an inversion of your chord this way you can
    harmonize the scale .

    It's easier if I show you.

    Take CEGB from C major KEY

    We want make a scale of chords from this .
    First for major type chord you turn it into
    I6 chord maj6th
    C6 CEGA ( you'll see why that is soon)
    Next half step down build a dim7 chord.

    Bdim7 BDFG#B ( this remember from before
    Means 4 dominant7 chords )
    But for now it represents a G7b9 no root

    Now we have our tonic C6 CEGA
    We have our V7 chord B dim7
    We create the scale of chords by unfolding these chords inversions .
    So first the 2 chords in row
    BDFG#.....V7
    CEGA.........I7

    Now we unfold their inversions by placing first note at end of chord.
    BDFG#
    CEGA
    DFG#B
    EGAC
    FG#BD
    GACE
    G#BDF
    ACEG
    BDFG#

    Now we have a V7 to I motion repeated

    We can also see a scale emerge
    CDEFGG#ABC
    See how our tonic chord tones line up on string beat and the V7 chord tones line up off the beat ( weak beat?)
    So not only we have a useable chord for each note of the scale we get even number note lining up on the correct beats .

    Now we need to look at the inversion which starts on the A
    ACEG Amin7 , Cmaj6 CEGA

    They the same this means the same scale of chords is used for major type chords or minor7 type chords just starting from different location in the scale of chords
    However we need to create a scale of chords for every type of chord type we encounter in music .

    This means
    Maj
    Min7
    Min6
    Min7b5
    Dominant 7
    Dim7

    And I will show you by altering the notes slightly you get a scale of chords for every chord type.

    So we started C6 CEGA
    This is Maj type chords
    Then in the inversion it becomes
    Amin7 ACEG
    So far same scale chords for both those types chords
    Now to make a scale chords for min6 and min7b5
    Type chords
    We alter only one note by one semitone .
    C6 CEGA and Amin7 ACEG

    Amin7ACEG becomes Amin6 ACEF#

    That one alteration gives us

    Amin6 ACEF# and F#Min7b5 F#ACE

    Now we have min6 chord type and min7b5 type

    The rest we haven't changed altered stays same watch


    ACEF#.....here is min6
    BDFG#
    CEF#A
    DFG#B
    EF#AC
    FG#BD
    F#ACE ....here is min7b5
    G#BDF
    ACEF#

    Now we have V7 to I motion repeating
    Where I tonic is either min6 type chord
    Or min7b5 type chord depending where you start from as notated.

    So far we have seen scale of chords for these chord types.
    Major
    Minor
    Min6
    Minor7b5

    Now we need dominant 7th type chords.
    Going back to C6 CEGA
    We can simply make A go up A#
    Now we have
    C7 CEGA#

    The rest stays same

    CEGA#
    DFG#B
    EGA#C
    FG#BD
    GA#CE
    G#BDF
    A#CEG
    BDFG#
    CEGA#


    Now we have covered these types scales of chord
    Major
    Minor
    Min6
    Min7b5
    Dominant7

    This gives you a way to use this scale of chords on every type of function you will encounter.

    Also can show you Dim7 scale of chords .

    BDFG#
    We create another dim7 chord half step down from this one.
    A#C#EG
    BDFG#
    C#EGA#
    DFG#B
    EGA#C#
    FG#BD
    GA#C#E
    G#BDF
    A#C#EG

    This creates a way to use the WH and HW diminished

    Now we have literally every type of chord you ever encounter can use scale of chords
    A scale which lines up strong beats also with harmony for each note in that scale
    For every chord you ever encounter any time in any style of music.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
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  9. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Continuation of scales

    It's worth noting that the level of detail keeps expanding with possibilities.

    For instance building off the " scale of chords "
    Concept further
    ( Scale where chord tones strong beat )

    You have after that ( say in the key of c major)
    The
    Chromatic C major Scale

    Cc#Dd#EgFF#Gg#AA#BdC.

    That is chromatic c major low to high .

    Here is the chromatic C major scale high to low backwards.

    CdBa#Ag#Gf#FgEd#Dc#C

    Now you can make a chromatic version of every scale .

    Let's say as discussed previously
    We in key c major
    First chord is Cmaj7 CEGB or C6 CEGA
    We want a 7 note scale " upper extensions"
    Such that all 7 notes fit on the strong beat.
    C Lydian CDEF#GABC

    Now that we have this create a chromatic C Lydian scale.

    Cc#Dd#EgFf#Gg#Aa#BdC. ( Nope wrong !

    Now we have all our chord tones and upper extensions landing on the strong beats.

    Note this is starting to show you the true number of options available in the music language .
    You have almost unlimited options once you learn all the components of the language .
    ____________________
    Oh damn I messed that up.

    I have to correct that chromatic c Lydian scale .
    Let's say you were doing it like this and you made mistake how can we get it right?

    Let's take chromatic F Lydian scale first .

    Ff#Gg#Aa#BdCc#Dd#EgF

    Now follow this shape except starting from C

    Cc#Dd#EfF#aGg#Aa#BdC

    Now we have all the chord tones and upper extensions for our Cmaj7 CEGB
    Lining up correctly on the strong beats


    It's worth noting
    You can mix parts of the Chromatic C Lydian scale with what you would play regular Lydian scale , or even scale of chords
    Mix with guide tones 3rd 7th
    Common tones
    Mix those with chord arpeggios in different ways.
    Now you are building a large vocabulary.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  10. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Secrets of music ( playing techniques writing )

    We going to look at our several options ( we eventually combine together interesting ways)

    Start off with key of C cadence to C

    Structure is.
    Dmin7, G7 alt, Cmaj6

    First chord
    1.Dmin7 ...DFAC....scale Dorian ..DEFGABCD...


    1.guide tones 3rd and 7th define the sound of DFAC
    2.common tones between the structure
    Ex.
    DFAC and GBDF

    If we try match up things

    DFAC , DFAB

    D...F.....A....B
    5th,7,9th,3rd

    So here we using common tones of Dmin7 to transition to G7 chord GBDF

    DFAC to DFAB

    3.arpeggios
    DFACE
    13579
    GBDFA
    13579

    4. "Upper extension " scale ( 7 note scale in strong beats.
    Ex
    G7 altered is the notes of
    G#Melodic minor
    GAltered is starting in 7th degree of G#melodic minor .

    GG#A#BC#D#FG

    5.Triad pairs

    If we take DFAC and it's scale DEFGABCD
    But make a 7 note chord
    DFACEGB
    Remove middle note
    DFA,EGB( first triad pair
    Next
    Put first note at end
    FACEGBD
    Now remove middle note
    FAC,GBD ( second triad pair
    Next
    Put first note at end
    ACEGBDF
    Remove middle note
    ACE,BDF( third triad pair

    Continue onward to get all your triad pairs for this chord ( 7 note upper extensions scale

    6.scale of chords ( as demonstrated previous comment box )

    7.Chromatic version of 7 note upper extension scale
    Ex.
    DFAC scale D Dorian DEFGABCD
    Chromatic D Dorian scale is
    Dd#EgFf#Gg#Aa#BdCc#D

    8. Grace notes , guide tones, enclosures
    We use our chromatic notes and scale notes to setup a Melody for a strong landing note.
    ( Like a cadence is for harmony Dmin7,G7,Cmaj
    Setups to land on C Maj )
    We can use the same concept for a Melody as well .

    Look at this chain of notes.

    FF#GG#

    F and G are the 7th and root of G7 GBDF
    We going to use the G# and F# in an enclosure
    Such that the strong beats outline the 7th and root of G7 GBDF
    To do this
    We need to make first beat a rest silent note
    Then start melody on the " off beat"
    R indicates a rest on string beat Bold indicates strong beats , and reg text indicates weak beat.

    Here is our first enclosure example using those notes

    RG#FF#G

    You see we start above go down below and travel back up

    This enclosure sets up our last note
    Try alternating between the chord G7 GBDF
    And this enclosure .
    Then alternate between arpeggio GBDFA
    And the enclosure .

    9. Now we combine each one of these to create our own unique individualized music where tens of thousands of melodies can be made stacked in layers at different rhythms timings textures layers
    To create anything you want you get to decide.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  11. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Example of combining 2 enclosures with chord tones and triad pairs to make a Melody out of a chord inside of a songs structure .

    Key of C major

    Cmaj7 .CEGB...C Lydian scale .CDEF#GABC

    First we create our triad pair
    Start 7 note chord
    CEGBDF#A
    Remove middle note

    CEG,DF#A
    Now we have our triad pair to use in the melody .

    We will use our 5th note and 3rd note create enclosures with.
    G note enclosure
    RG#FF#G

    E note enclosure
    RFDD#E

    Combine

    These two first into melody listen to it over Cmaj chord
    CG#FF#GFDD#EG#FF#GFDD#EDC long ring out

    Play that to see how the enclosure acts as a building block to be combined with other building blocks like Legos

    Let's now make a triad pair based melody .

    1.CEG,DF#A { triad pair

    From low to high EGCD ( now descend) AF#D

    Let's take this exact melody and combine with the enclosures from before

    EGCDAF#DG#FF#GFDD#ECF#DGFDD#EGCDAF#D


    Do you see we can make tens of thousands of melodies out of a main structure like

    Cmaj7 CEGB...C.lydian.CDEF#GABC

    It's really limitless

    Let's see another .


    GCEF#DACEGAF#DAFDD#EG#FF#GAF#DAC


    Let's make a building block ( larger one though

    F#DAGCFDD#E

    This is now it's own building block try it alternating
    With Cmaj chord

    When you create a building block
    ( Legos)
    You want to be able to loop it .

    Take this.

    F#DAF#GCEG ( down then up

    Loop it

    F#DAF#GCEGF#DAF#GCEGF#DAF#GCEG.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  12. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    The most common scales .

    Most of the time we only need 3 scales !

    The Major scale ( and it's modes )
    { Natural minor is included here}

    The harmonic minor scale
    (And it's modes )

    The melodic minor scale
    ( And it's modes )


    Less commonly but also used is

    The Diminished scales
    ( whole half and half whole dim.)
    Used on dominant or subdominant

    The Wholetone scales
    ( Used on dominant )

    The chromatic scale
    ( Used for Grace notes, leading tones, enclosures, embellishments, button hooks )

    We also have our "scales of chords"
    This will be its own topic

    That's about it .

    ( Sure there are many others , however they not very commonly used .)

    Not only that you will be able to easily modify these main scales to be some exotic scale once you get comfortable over time.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  13. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Scale practice.

    We going to look at the ways to use a scale and the connections it makes.

    Starting with C major scale ( I know I know...

    CDEFGABC

    We need to practice several aspects so that making real music we have all the connections available to us.

    To start look at the 7th chords in the scale

    1.CEGB
    2.DFAC
    3.EGBD
    4.FACE
    5.GBDF
    6.ACEG
    7.BDFA

    We are going to start off with part A triads

    1.play Triad up then down each

    CEGAFDEGBCAFGBDECABDFGEC

    Now reverse it to be down then up.

    GECDFABGEFACDBGACEFDBCEG


    Now play descending down then up

    GECBDFECAGBDCAFEGBAFDCEG

    Now play descending up then down

    CEGFDBACEDBGFACBGEDFAGEC

    This is our combinations going up and down the scale and variations.

    I hope this part A TRIADS variations is beginning to show you that much more can be done with scales then running up and down sweeps ( boring)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  14. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    radioative if u think MMJ work is a tutorial...then i believe you have already missed the boat my friend...MMj is trying to peel back the actual layers of comprehension involved in sonic structure...to assist us all to improve our ability to use these tools.....
     
  15. The study of the structure of music begins with the classification of all aspects of music into five basic categories:

    1. Sound
    2. Harmony
    3. Melody
    4. Rhythm
    5. Form


    • The sound of the music is the result of the voices and/or instruments used, the texture of the music, and the effects of dynamics. In music, texture refers to the way the melodic, rhythmic, and harmonic materials of a composition are woven together.

    • The study of the harmony of a composition includes the harmonic patterns and progressions, the tonal implications of the harmony, and how the harmony is sustained and elaborated.

    • The study of the melody of a composition includes the prominent melodic lines and their repetition and variation, the range and contour of melodic material, the phrase structure of the melodic lines, the scale basis for melodic materials, and the relationship and relative prominence of the various melodic ideas that appear together in a work.

    • The study of the rhythm in a composition includes the nature of rhythmic activity, the tempo and tempo changes, the density of rhythmic activity, and the harmonic rhythm or rate of harmonic change throughout a composition.

    • Form refers to the larger shape of the composition. Form in music is the result of the interaction of the four structural elements previously described.

    These structural elements seldom function in isolation in a piece of music.
     
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  16. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    excellent radioactive.......now you getting the idea......you take the basics MMJ can do the peeling back and delving into the gizzards.......great team work
     
  17. sir jack spratsky

    sir jack spratsky Producer

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    i feel sure MMj will welcome the help, although it might be better to start your own thread....something like....music 101 ??
     
  18. farao

    farao Rock Star

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    I am afraid he have shown that he is more interested in confrontation and aggresion rather than collaboration and understanding, but I might be wrong. I hope I am. My feeling though, is that he for some reason can’t stand the study of harmony by itself and that he is determined on disrupting this form of education and learning, not adding value to it in a civil way. I guess we’ll find out. If I am wrong I will gladly apologize and support it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  19. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    His understanding is broken and fragmented also.
    He understands some slivers with lack of knowledge in between causing a distorted take on music . ( Which we all have that problem at done point)
    But the difference between different people's approach ( when at that point)
    Is what matters .
    ( For example a humble approach recognizing that one is early in in a long journey work and study to fill in missing gaps and improve overtime when learning the very full and complex subject of music )
    Compared to a different approach of a person who knowledge is fragmented and they take a abrasive cocky approach of anytime they see something they cannot quite make sense of , turn it into behaving rude and accusations .
    ( Music is sufficiently complex to the degree every person on their journey if learning it, is going to feel intimidated at times. Feel confused about something.need clarification. Needing to see how it fits and connect s to the peices of knowledge they already have.( No way to avoid this journey music is an advanced subject like many things in life which spear different on the surface than it does at the deeper level.)
    I invite us all to reflect on co-operation .
    Vs conflict in terms of communication of information related to advancing oneself in the area of studying music ( such to develop an ever more clear and presice picture of how music itself actually works .)
    To have an open mind , ready to be surprised at any moment .ready to be transformed the moment a new important price of the information puzzle that is music language comes your way.
    This journey of dedication towards you learning the way music works , has an impact on every single musical skill you have developed thus far.
    Even though there will always be a new thing which intimidates you , seems overwhelming, confusing
    With a bit of time and effort you will overcome that challenge and become comfortable and gain wisdom unimaginable just a short time ago .
     
  20. MMJ2017

    MMJ2017 Audiosexual

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    Secrets of music ( the connection of keys)
    ------------------------
    If you start off with a pie that has 12 equal pieces .
    And you want to take 4 at a time ( a 4 note chord )
    And if you equally space these 4 peices ( a chord)
    You can have 3 sets of 4 equal spaced pieces.

    The 4 equal slices we are talking in music is called the diminished 7th chord ( stacking minor 3rds(
    There are 3 diminished 7 the chords
    In all of music .
    If you bunch notes together as close as you can
    To make a dim7 chord. And move up semitone make another dim7 chords move it up one more semitone again and play the 3rd dim7 chord you have now played all 12 notes , divided into 3 dim7 chords.
    This means you just played all 12 dominant 7 chords in music .
    That tiny area you just played , contains the cadence of every single major and minor key

    This idea of understanding how to play all keys in every small area on your instruments. Is the secret to mastering several important aspects of melody and harmony .

    Let's begin with the dim7 chord which connects directly to C Maj - A rel minor key .

    A short cut is to start in your major or minor tonic go down semi tone .
    Say C Maj
    Down to B, now stack 4 minor 3rds
    BDFG#. Bdim7

    Say Aminor
    Down to G# ,now stack 4 minor thirds
    G#BDF G#dim7.

    Let's compare the 2 dim7 chords .
    BDFG# Bdim7
    G#BDF. G#dim7

    These are the same chord different inversion .
    Let's make all 4 inversions .

    BDFG#....Bdiminished7th
    DFG#B.....Ddiminished7th
    FG#BD....Fdiminished7th
    G#BDF....G#diminished7th

    Because we have a symmetrical chord ( stack minor 3rds) it is true that these 4 names equally describe any inversion of this chord .

    Let's look at this chord connection to Cmaj6 ( tonic of c Maj key)

    BDFG# to CEGA

    If we look at V7 of Cmajor the dominant chord
    We get this GBDF ( but what is G# in a G7? )
    G# is the flat 9th ( A is ninth)
    So if we replace G7b9 ( GBDFG#)
    With removing the root note . We get
    BDFG# Bdim7.
    This means Bdim7,Ddim7,Fdim7,G#dim7
    All resolve strongly to Cmaj ( C6 here)

    Let's now go back to the relative minor of the key A minor .
    It's V7 dominant chord is E7 ( EG#BD)
    Let's look at G#dim7 (G#BDF) resolving to Amin6

    G#BDF to ACEF# ( Amin6 or Aminmaj ACEG# are the tonic of Amelodic minor )

    Let's compare E7 to G#dim7

    E7b9 ( like before with G7b9)
    Is EG#BDF
    Well if again we remove the root note we get
    G#BDF G#dim7.
    So Bdim7,Ddim7,Fdim7,G#dim7 resolves strongly to Amin ( A Nat minor,Harmonic minor,or melodic minor )

    You should be wondering now how can Bdim7
    BDFG# be a G7b9, an E7b9 at same time?
    How can that make any sense!?
    We it's because a dim7 chord literally is
    4 dominant 7 chords in one condensed down
    ( 4 rootless 7thflat9 chords
    Let's see this

    BDFG# ( G7b9 GBDFG#
    DFG#B ( A#7b9 A#DFG#B
    FG#BD ( C#7b9 C#FG#BD
    G#BDF ( E7b9 EG#BDF

    End of part I
     
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