So true. No matter how you look at it, we have a new foster clone.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=tak...ih=695&biw=400&prmd=ivsn#imgrc=HM7W2LjfkmrhoM

 

Please excuse my phone not posting links the way that I want it to lol.
Let's take a look at the Jazz standard " Take the "A" train. By the Duke Ellington orchestra . This particular piece is a great introduction into jazz by it's structure it is very simple and lovely like well written pop song . It's composed in such a way as to be very consonant .

Let's look at the main structure .

C6 (C major ) .
D7b5
Dmin7
G7
C6

We'll start off with this beggining.
First we have Cmajor to D7 to Dmin7
How does that make any sense ?
Right away it seems unfamiliar .
Well think about a time when you see a major7 chord with a dom7 chord a whole step above it.
Say for instance C major Key
You have Fmajor7 then G7
A IV to V
Then remember a ii chord and IV are both subdominant and swappable with each other .
So far we can see D7 is the V chord of G major Key.
Then we can see that the IV chord is C major.
Now we can look at the first 4 chords in the progression again .

C6 Cmaj
D7
Dmin7
G6

We can see the tail end is dmin7 to G7 to Cmajor
This is ii V I in Cmajor.
What about the 2 chords before that ?
(IV Cmaj, V D7b5) dmin7 G7 Cmaj
So we have to ask would you ever have a ii to V without a I at the end?
In other words a ii V I without the I ?
In the key of c major it is common to have the ii V of the Gmajor key , while omitting the I at the end.
It is common to see
Ii V Byitelf when it is a ii V of the V7 ( G7)
Remember we talked about making cadence or ii V I to each chord in our key.
Well in the key if C major you will commonly see the cadence of the G7 as just a ii V .
This is what we have now.

Cmaj7 ( cdef#gabc of g major
D7b5. ( Def#gabcd of g major
Dmin7. ( Defgabcd of c major
G7. ( Gabcdefg of c major
C6 . ( Cdef#gabc of Gmajor

Now anytime we use a I chord for the upper extension chords we have to sharpen the 4
In c major cegbdfa the f has to b f#
Because the f is avoid note.
A simple rule is to find any scale look at your chord so
Cegb.
1357

To make complete scale pick note wholestep above 1 3 5 tones
So
Cegb
1357
Df#a

 

Take the " A" Train.
C6 cega. ( Cdef#gabc. IV mode Gmajor
D7b5 df#g#c. ( Def#gabcd V of Gmajor Flatten 5th
Dmin7 dfac. ( Defgabcd. ii of c major
G7 gbdf . ( Gabcdefg V of Cmajor
C6 cega. ( Cdef#gabc IV mode Gmajor
Gmin7 . Ga#df . (gaa#cdefg ii of Fmajor
C7 cega#. (Cdefgaa#bc V of Fmajor
Fmaj7 face . (Fgabcdef Iv of c major
D7. Df#ac (Def#gabcd V of Gmajor
Dmin9 dface . ( Defgabcd ii of c major
G9 gbdfa . (Gabcdefg V of Cmajor)

 

Take the structure above with the chords and scales and practice building things out of it in different ways using all the things we covered in this thread .

 

Building a scale for any chord.

Say you have cmaj7
Cegb
1357
You pick wholestep above 135
That be
Df#a
Then put them in a row
C d e f# g a b c

Let's try another

G7
Gbdf
1357

Wholestep above 135

Ac#e
Put in row
Gabc#defg for G7

How about
Dmin7
Dfac
1357

Wholestep above 135
EGB
Put in row
Defgabcd for dmin7

How about Bmin7b5?
Bdfa
1357
C#eg

Bc#defgab for bmin7b5


How about G7b5?
Gbc#f
1357
Ac#d#
Gabc#d#f for G7b5

 

Ignoring some strange ways about the fellows personality and production.
Let's take a look a the music aspect presented in this video and how 8t pertains to what we have been discussing, next if you want slow the speed of the video down to getter hear what is happening in the melody at the intro

 

Do a little listening to these albums

 

Hm, dude, I don't know what are trying to say - it's you who lacks musical education, not me. Maybe come out of the jazz hole and study more music for broader overview of the different possibilities. Jazz, which in the end of the day is just one (macro)style, but can't be characterized by your forum tips and simplifications.

Mozart was trained using partimenti and 90% of his music shows this. Beethoven studied pretty hard counterpoint with different teachers and later in his life - on his own - older modal compositions. Bach was trained using the thorough bass method. There are 2 volumes published by Dover on this theory - it's the best modern reference. These guys' music has little to do with what MMJ is trying to teach here, which is mainly a method based on some improvisatory bebop cliches.

Btw, Foster, you better sit down and study or produce some music, stop trolling the forums, it's a waste of time...

 

Thank you.

 

If you are interested in books, check these titles:

The Art of Accompaniment from a Thorough-Bass: As Practiced in the XVII and XVIII Centuries (2 volumes) - F.T.Arnold
Music in the Galant Style - R. Gjerdingen
Study of harmony: historical perspective - Diether de la Motte
Cambridge history of Western music theory

Some of these are better used as a reference and are not for beginners. Since the topic of this post is "jazz", I can say that only de la Motte's book has anything to do with extended harmony in a modern sense.
(Most or all of these can be found around the web, so even the poor people can self educate for free. I'm not sure how practical is all this for most producers on this forum that just want to make a loopy beat ala whatever is top 100 at the moment, but who knows.)

 

These books don't have any place in the modern genres. For their realizations, we must go back to the years before 1900 to the European custom. Oversimplification of music in the US has made those terms almost useless.

I can bet no one in this forum uses them. They just want to learn some shortcuts to make fast music.

 

How to make Melody that moves in a " spiral".
What I mean is getting away from a scalular up and down 1 dimensional process and move to a 3d movement.

For simplicity here is our structure .
Cebg C major7

We are going to follow this framework.
C e g b d f# a
1 3 5 7 91113

Now this is how it works
1. 3rd and 7th . E and B
2. 1 3 5 7 .CEGB

So we are to begin playing

E to B long ring back to E

Next blend in the 13 5 7

E to B slide up to C up to G

Here is another

C down to G up to B slide up to C up to E long vibrato etc.

Here is another

E down to C slide down B down to G

Next level of detail is our upper extensions.

D f# a
9 11 13

And how we use them is to slide up or down to a 135

Now we combine this last step with all the others we did.

D down to C up to E up to G slide down to f# long note vibrato or tremelo .

Here is another

A slides down to G up to C down to f# slides down to E long vibrato down to C down to G slide down f# up to A slide down to G.

Practice these slowly with musical expression and good rhrythm. :D

 

I myself agree, I go back as far as possible from origins of African drumming 20,000 years ago and gradually work my way through history.
I understand though if done people don't quite have a lot of time for that and instead put most their focus on the theory and playing of music . But yes as you say the more historical understanding you build up the more you put a clearer and bigger picture of music in your mind .

 

It's like if a person dedicates themself to automechanics, they don't HAVE to study the history going all the way back to the first automobile and many people won't have the time to do it, but those that can , it gives a cultural and historical understanding of development coupled with a framework of knowledge how the parts work how to work on and replace parts modern vehicles
It's the same with music if you can go through history because it will put a cultural and historical framework connected with your theory and playing ability.

 

The next tool for creating " spiral" melody, is called
" Octave displacement with permutation"
Here is how it works.

We take C maj7 135 cegb

From low to high play
CEGB
Next we play the C high octave then go down low to EGB from low to high
CEGB
Next combine the two
CEGBCEGB
Once you get comfortable now we permutate.
EGBCEGBC
Next
GBCEGBCE
Next
BCEGBCEG
Take your time go slow and play with swing timing

 

No, limiting yourself to certain idioms creates a unique effect, a language. That's why jazz sounds different from other styles for example.
Knowing history allows us to choose exactly how we want to sound, a wider palette.
Btw, have you listened to kawaii future bass? - it's some kind of electronic jazz (in terms of extended chords, the rhythms have nothing to do with jazz) meets pedo anime influences; it's the only example of electronic music (aside from funky disco house) where we can hear "jazzy chords".

There are no shortcuts (I mean there are tools in each DAWs that make theory useless, but I have yet to see a new Beethoven working in Live, not knowing any theory, if you know what I mean). Anything is applicable as long the person knows what he is doing. Do you know the Matrix soundtrack? Don Davis and Juno Reactor made some decent trance/tribal techno+orchestral, I think it's mainly for the battle scenes, but the theory behind this stuff is on the advanced side - like cluster and various semi-atonal textures. Of course, the regular producer is not Don Davis (btw, most of the stuff he copied from older, real orchestral music; still, it's probably better than todays Zimmer clones).

 

awesome thread mmj...

 

come on...do you really think a edm kiddie is looking thru all this...

there is a lot of jazzy DnB out there but maybe i doesnt fit here

 

Let's take a moment to think about the conception of "Octave displacement with permutation"

This is a very important concept which once fathomed and internalized ,opens up the door to you expressing yourself deeply in realtime ( as opposed to say sounding 3 months to write a song section)

The heart of this concept is to take a "cell"
Next to expand this into the other octaves by making your own Lego peices of cells,
Then finally using permutation fully accessing the fractal natural of jazz language .

Let's look at some examples first, then you can transcend the specific example into the larger conception to invent your voice with these tools.

Let's say a Dmin7 in key of C major
DFACEG
1357911

We will start with just the 135

From low to high
1.DFA
2.FAD
3ADF

Next the first note is octave higher then drop down to low to high again , so the octave higher note is in bold text.
1 DFA
2.FAD
3.ADF

Now we combine both rows into a loop that repeats.

1.DFADFA
2.FADFAD
3.ADFADF

Now this is our basic cell.

Take 1.
DFADFA

We are going to make a enclosure around the last note.
So
A
Becomes
A#GG#AA#A

So
DFADFA#GG#AA#A
You do the next 2 permutations shown above and follow the same enclosure pattern.
Take your time and internalized the conceptual process in use here.
Then begin to adapt it to your own cell.