Believe it or not, you've kinda hit the nail on the head to make my point here. Quite often, in order to find what does work, you have to first find what does not. I have experimented and had quite a lot of bad chord progressions, and they have been discarded. I can only say that they did not feel logical to the ear. Without the ear really knowing why (because that is music theory), it knows when progressions don't make sense, or when they lack logic. The chords used don't logically belong together, and the average listener knows this without even knowing WHY. I mean when you start asking these deeper questions, it means you have stumbled around long enough to know that you need some education to this logic. Even though I don't have this theory under my belt I know it is valuable, just because of my own stumbling. When you have stumbled long enough you then begin to see the merits of these rules. If you don't care about the consequences (listeners that are unimpressed), then continue stumbling. It's as simple as that. For me since I am a drummer, I tend to let the more studied on this subject supply the progressions for me. I still stumble from time to time, but I am aware of WHY these formulas even exist. Formulas, rules same thing. Music theory.

 

Theory most often comes after music, when people start to analyse it for purpose of understanding it from another view or for teaching purposes in the style of a certain composer or genre.

I think this should be remembered by people who study music theory.

Also music theory as we know it is from a western classical perspective, indian classical music theory is different. Music with roots in african-american music can not be described in a satisfactory way by classical music theory.

 

Music Theory = Music + Theory
That's an art, not a science, and even if you believe that's a science then you gonna find the right way in the mess...
If that sounds good, it's good...

 

You are mixing up things. Theory comes after music only when it comes to describe what pioneers did to develop new kinds of music. For you to play the music without reinventing the wheel music theory comes before the music.

 

Believe it or not, the theory just tends to explain the logic of what the ear already knows instinctively. The ear knows what it likes, by instinct (art), and the theory explains WHY certain things are true. You either believe this or you don't. I don't have this theory under my belt but I do have a very good ear. I can tell what sounds good and what doesn't, but I know there are two different aspects to this which can co-exist. I have been using music theory, even if it is proposed by someone else. I use other people's chord progressions (for the most part). I am still using theory even if it was done by someone else. Working by ear, I am keenly aware of the artistic aspect of this, but I don't deny the need for some education in the matter. You are not doing yourself any good if you deny this. Maybe you are lucky and your ear gives you all the inspiration for good chord progressions. You would not be the norm, if that were true. I lack this but I am determined to at least get a basic grip on this. I myself do acknowledge the value.

 

Well, I was expecting at least one answer from @MMJ2017 to your question @foster911 .

 

agree, and from there, a totally honest question.
would this so basic concept even be relevant or even comprehensible for a person who is tone-def? who simply cant hear the obvious benefit?

or, someone who is simply extremely "lazy", because of lets say a serious lack of concentration ability and/or some other related disorder and therefor unable to internalise the meaning and essence of harmony?

my wild guess is such a person could easily end up repeatedly asking random odd questions time after time, without ever getting closer to any real conclusion.

its the only plausible explanation i can think of really

.

 

Last edited: May 26, 2018

Everything is possible with modulation and voice-leading.

 

@foster911
Nice that you rate my post as "funny". In fact, it should comment on your phrase "without considering any rule" (and its absurdity) and the kind of "music" that may come out of it.
Transformed into a poem, it would may be something like this:

Opl mojwyos amjizoqi, jgz kqaxi dkwwsfqjx
rfu lva couucz, dwvdun lnbg bsl?
Avpshy fayh zmi roncx, bdcagh bbak
nm rqzcv - khyycm albg!

Revolutionary, spectacular, awesome, right?

Well, there are even some hidden rules in there (eg the agreement on the signs of the alphabet, the arrangement of lines, the acceptance of a beginning and an end, and many more). But it may give you an idea of where the journey goes "without considering any rule".

It is, moreover, absurd to believe that there could be a manifestation in this cosmos "without rules". The natural laws known to us are binding rules, even very strict (thank God or whoever!). As far as we know, they are equally valid everywhere in the cosmos and for every form of existence.

So come on, do it, connect your chords as you like, make so-called "rule-free" music. Make your experience with what is commonly known as chance and chaos, too. But while you do so, never believe that your actions do not obey the rules of the all-encompassing nature that we all belong to. If your goal is to break the rules of nature, you will surely fail.

 

Last edited: May 26, 2018

Foster, you could have read any modern book or article on voice leading and not ask stupid questions... Generally, we can find symmetries and patterns in every type of music except in random/aleatoric/free jazz.

http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2692&context=utk_gradthes
http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.06.12.2/mto.06.12.2.murphy.html
http://dmitri.mycpanel.princeton.edu/files/publications/debussy.pdf
https://archive.org/details/harmonicmaterial00hans
https://www.amazon.com/Geometry-Music-Counterpoint-Extended-Practice/dp/0195336674

 

A random foundation based on what? Just imagine digging the foundation for a building that you have no concept regarding it's shape or size or even function. The hole in the ground might be too large or too small, too shallow or much too deep. The ground itself might have special needs if it is made of one material or another. You start to build and find everything that you randomly laid was incompatible with everything else, materials as well as concept (or lack thereof). You never will accomplish your goal unless you are extremely lucky to stumble upon the right formula, a million to one shot at best. This is the reason you have really nothing to show from all your finagling...the universe has rules in order that fantasy take form.

 

Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2018

I'd like to also point out that it's a hell of a lot easier to "write" something if you are somewhat well versed on an instrument, or at least can hold a tone and skip around some intervals with your voice. I find it easier to write complete ideas with a guitar and my voice - for whatever genre I decide to work in. Why? Because it's spontaneous and in the moment. Nothing beats the speedy results of improvisation. Whatever your skill level.

Today's generation of home 'producers' are expected to conceptualize, write, arrange, pre-produce, record and engineer, mix, master, develop art, create websites, and publish their work - not to mention : buy a computer, assemble it, install and tweak OS, install DAW, learn DAW, install VSTs, learn VSTs, learn about LLP audio interfaces, optimize interface, f'ing latency, CPU trainwreck. But, what's the point.....to create a product - whatever that product means to you.

Let me continue with above for a sec.....external synths, modular, 40 y/o midi protocol, furniture, outboard gear, guitars, basses, string changes, f'ing drum kit acoustic/elec, drum heads, mics, a mile of f'ing cable mgmt nightmare, monitoring, acoustic treatments. I'm gonna puke. The question should be, how do I use photoshop.

You also have to know how to develop beats, write basslines, write melody and counterpoint, develop a vetted sound library, edit audio down to bit level, and yes.......understand the theory of all of it (in context).

How do you connect chords together? IMO, if you don't want to dissect concert music excerpts, which is not really necessary today to get results, pick up a guitar or sit down at a keyboard, put on your headphones and start learning songs that inspire you. The Beatles have done just about everything, start there. ("Hey Jude" chord progression can be used as harmonic skeleton for an EDM track; with musicianship and ethical discretion, of course - for instance.) Anything goes.

A lifelong relationship with an instrument (and your voice.....hum if you have to at first, sing monotone if u have 2 at first) not only provides you with instant ideas, but it allows you to fly faster and higher than just using a mouse, or randomizers (which ARE f'ing awesome btw) or arpeggiators etc... It makes every other tool work for you exponentially.

Ok, I'll stop now. I could go on about the importance of meeting, jamming, hanging out and collaborating and learning from as many people as you can. Your initiative and inquisitiveness is 100% there, and I really don't know what your toolbox looks like. As someone once said, "I care Because You Do."

 

Last edited: May 27, 2018

They are too academic and would not lead you to practice and why do you think that you can explain every experimentation by math? Math is for theorist not music makers of players and doesn't cover all life.

And also, this question is not stupid. If those connections carefully selected (by carefully, absolutely I don't mean theory), the result would be amazing and I don't think you have experienced it before.

 

It seems random at first sight but after some more experimentations, you would instinctively select the best sounding connections in any context. You don't need any theory to approve that. You can totally trust you ears and skills (acquired by doing that).

 

I'm with you and this thread is for using all the 12 notes in a democratic way without fearing that what the result would be. You can easily harness the chromaticism by you ear without waiting for any theory to endorse it.

If you can harness the pink one, you can do anything you want.

 

According to the title of this thread, they're useless. Of course they provide smooth flow but if you can trust your ears more than anything else, you won't need them.

The problem is, people think that everything has been experienced and theorized before and they just need to study those theories. Without re-experiencing them, you won't find new ways. I don't say you waste your time, no, I just say finding better and more practical ways to solve the problems and internalizing them. The practicality is acquired by redoing and believing in your approaches.

Making music is so simple but theoreticians make it more complicated to understand and the key is doing it by yourself.

 

You would use a more advanced analysis to refine your idea in a way that you would not have thought about otherwise.

For instance, you drive in your car downtown. You only know how to drive down the highway. Every once in a while you have the ability to pull off on an exit, but you just go over the bridge right back down to the same highway that you were just driving on.

If you modulate, use chord substitutions, secondary dominants, Dim and Aug in the right places, you could drive your car to China Town, and have lunch at the Green Dragon, go down a couple of blocks, buy a gram of heroin, drive to the club off N. Avenue, get ripped, get back in your car, get in a police chase, outrun the police, and CODA : cut through 5 neighborhoods to safely park back into your garage at 3:45am. The latter is to Bowie, the former is to Green Day.

 

Last edited: May 27, 2018

In just 15 minutes. I didn't care for anything (just my ears).



The next one would be chromatic.

 

with understanding you can connect any chord to any other chord.
this connection would be in the context of an understanding of the larger picture of what you are expressing.
Many things before and after the 2 chords ,would have to match up correctly.
This would be impossible to do "if" you connected 2 chords without knowledge of the larger context. in that instance, you would have a result where the chords before and after the 2 chords was just random stuff. it would come out like crap.