Hello everyone, I have not noticed any performance advantage of my vst 3 plugins over their vst2 counterparts. Are those claims of vst 3 offering performance gains over vst 2 theorical or factual?

 

Havent noticed any performance benefits... Only benefit thats obvious (to me) is ease of sidechaining...

 

From a reply i did the other day

For those who don't know hope this helps

New VST3 features

Improved performance
Managing large plug-in sets and multiple virtual instruments on typical studio computer systems can often be difficult because of CPU performance limits. VST3 helps to improve overall performance by applying processing to plug-ins only when audio signals are present on their respective inputs. Instead of always processing input signals, VST3 plug-ins can apply their processing economically and only when it is needed.

Multiple dynamic I/Os
VST3 plug-ins are no longer limited to a fixed number of inputs and outputs. Their I/O configuration can dynamically adapt to the channel configuration they’re inserted in, meaning that any VST3 plug-in can be surround-capable with true multi-channel processing. For example, all the new VST3 plug-ins in Nuendo 4 can work in stereo-mode when inserted into a stereo channel, but switch to 6 channels when inserted into a 5.1 channel. Each audio channel is processed independently. Interaction between channels depends on the type and design of the plug-in. In addition to their flexible audio bussing capabilities, VST3 plug-ins may also offer a dedicated event bus. Typically, this is a MIDI input for control/modulation but these busses are no longer restricted to MIDI standard only. Future plug-ins may replace the common MIDI interface with alternative methods of control.


Activating/deactivating busses
A typical issue with current virtual instruments is their audio output bussing system and how they’re connected to the mixer after loading. Especially virtual samplers with multiple outputs often occupy more mixer channels than need. The VST3 interface offers the possibility to deactivate unused busses after loading and even reactivate those when needed. This cleans up the mixer and further helps to reduce CPU load.

Resizable edit windows
VST3 introduces a new approach to plug-in GUIs though window resizing, allowing for extremely flexible use of valuable screen space.


Sample-accurate automation
VST3 also features vastly improved parameter automation with sample accuracy and support for ‘ramped’ automation data, allowing completely accurate and rapid parameter automation changes.

Logical parameter organization
The plug-in parameters are displayed in a tree structure. Parameters are grouped into sections which represent the structure of the plug-in. Parameters like “Cutoff” and “Resonance” could be grouped into a section called “Filter”. This makes searching for a certain parameters easier, such as on an automation track. This also allows assigning a group of parameters to a specific MIDI Channel input and audio output bus.


Optional VST3/SKI combination
As a direct result of the modular interface design of VST3, the Steinberg Kernel Interface (SKI) can be combined with VST3 plug-ins. SKI is an additional SDK that allows extremely close integration of a plug-in with a Steinberg host application, and allows functions to be carried out almost from within the application. This extends to the ability to create tracks, copy, cut, paste or process events in the Steinberg host application. SKI is provided to selected industry partners upon request.

VSTXML for remote controllers
Remote controllers for audio and MIDI software applications have become increasingly popular. With VSTXML, VST3 offers far more flexible control of VST plug-ins by remote controllers. Using the knobs and faders on the control surface, parameters can be recorded, renamed and edited in many ways. Parameters that cannot be edited can be routed for display purposes to the control surface, for example to show Gain Reduction on compressor.


UTF16 for localized parameter naming
In VST3, all strings that can be displayed to the user are in Unicode (UTF16) format. Usage of this universal character base allows the host application to display characters in localized languages.

No MIDI restriction for parameter value transfers
VST3 has a dedicated interface for event handling that carries a much wider range of functionality than standard MIDI events would be able to provide. This opens up a big range of opportunities for musical use cases with very high potential for innovative product design. For example with VST3 some controller events (for example, pitch) can be referred to a note event (using a note unique ID). This offers the possibility to e.g. modulate only a single note which itself is part of a chord.


Audio inputs for VST instruments
The VST3 interface expands VST instruments by adding the ability to create audio input busses. As a result, audio data can be routed to an VST3 instrument. A synthesizer which has a built-in e.g. vocoder effect is able to process audio data coming in from other sources as well.

Multiple MIDI inputs/outputs
Unlike with VST 2.x,, a VST3 plug-in can have more than only one MIDI input or one MIDI output at the same time.


64-bit processing
VST3 plug-ins are generally able to process audio data in 64-bit.

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I have added this information as well, again i hope it's useful for somebody.

VST Expression
VST Expression is a groundbreaking technology introduced by Steinberg in Cubase 5 and significantly extended in Cubase 6. The latest version, VST Expression 2, is based on three core technologies: Note Expression, Expression Maps and VST Dynamics.

Note Expression
Note Expression is a revolutionary new way of controller editing, introduced in Cubase 6. As an alternative to viewing/editing controller data in the Controller Lane in the Key Editor, controller data can now be viewed/edited directly on the associated MIDI note events. Controllers now have a much more logical and musical character. A note event and its associated controller data are treated as a unit. A single note or multiple selected notes can be moved, copied, duplicated or deleted, and all their associated controller information will follow. Controllers can be conveniently edited using intuitive tools in the new Note Expression editor. This allows for more intuitive and more accurate editing of controller data.

A major limitation of MIDI is the nature of controller information. With the exception of poly pressure (polyphonic aftertouch), controller messages such as modulation or pitch bend are channel messages. It is important to understand that articulation data on one note usually also affect any other note playing on the same track/channel at the same time.

With VST 3, Cubase is able to break free from the limitations of MIDI controller events by providing access to new VST 3 controller events that circumvent the laws of MIDI and provide articulation information for each individual note — even in a polyphonic arrangement. Articulating each note in a chord individually creates a much more natural feel, just like multiple players playing the same instrument at the same time but each one adding his own personality to the notes played. Of course, this not only requires a new set of controller parameters, the socalled VST 3 Controllers, but it also requires an instrument capable of playing back these new controller messages. HALion Sonic SE and HALion Sonic 1.5 are the first Note Expression compatible VST 3.5 instruments available on the market that support this revolutionary new technology.


Expression Maps help you work with musical articulations. Articulations define how certain notes “sound”, i.e. how they should be performed on a given instrument. They allow you to specify that a string instrument is bowed (not plucked), a trumpet muted (not played open), and so on.

In Cubase, when you select an Expression Map for a MIDI or instrument track, the articulations (sounds) defined in the map are automatically applied during playback. Cubase recognizes the expressions scored for the MIDI part, searches for a matching articulation, and then the current note is either modified (e.g. played louder), or the MIDI channel, program change or key switch information is sent to the connected instrument, so that a different sound is played.

 

@The-RoBoT I don't mean to be rude, and I've absolutely nothing against you personally, but from your post a newbie [or just an ignorant audio user] to VST can get impression that VST2 really sucks if it lacks all that, which is not true at all. I am very well versed in VST and I can tell you that the most, if not all of these, so called "new features" VST developers implemented themselves into their VST2 plugins years ago. This list is only true for Cubase or Nuendo users who have never tried any other DAW, and never used any other plugins but Steinberg's. Steiny is lagging behind times badly. Almost as bad as Avid/Digidesign.

Besides, when you try using other DAWs you will find that VST3 plugins are generally less stable and less supported, even after all these years since VST3 introduction, and most VST developers hate it. I advise using VST3 plugins only in Cubase and Nuendo, if you appreciate stability. Maybe at some point in the future this will change, but so far it hasn't.

Cheers!

 

Last edited: May 19, 2018

I tried to use Sample Tank 3 in VST3 format, totally unstable, so I went back to VST2

 

Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2018

Agreed.
i know Reaper was doing that before VST3 came out.
Especially the Routing things where fantantic back then. Audio/Midi/Multiple Inputs
I miss that in Ableton Live ( still at Live9)

 

Well, if VST3 plugins are mostly stable in cubase, what does that tell you bro? It tells you that Steinberg is doing a good job making sure it works well with Cubase, while others havent bothered that much and will have to catch up.
Cubase right now is miles ahead of other daws in what it offers.
80% of plugins i use are VST3, very few are unstable as VST3 which is not Steinbergs fault.

 

Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2018

In SONAR, I avoid using VST3 mostly because of the bad integration with the plugin frame presets selector while this feature works well with VST2. Is it a host issue or a bad design of the VST3 technology ?

 

No offense taken, one thing you might take in consideration is what i pasted is from combined 2009-2011 information Steinberg offer, and it was for Vst 3.0 to VST3 v3.5 current versions as i understand it are at 3.6 i'm sure next year we will see another later version, but in the meantime using VST2 now and in the future is solely up to us and the developer's of other DAW's. Steinberg have no control over what others do, as you know you currently still use Windows 7 (if I'm correct?) and by not using Win 8 or Win 10 as far as i know has not impacted your experience doing music same rule applies nobody can force you to use another version or format.

I would say this current change Steinberg have announced won't change anything for people who wish to stay with VST2 if you basically catch my drift.

Here are the source pages
https://www.steinberg.net/en/company/technologies/vst3.html
https://www.steinberg.net/en/company/technologies/vst_expression.html

Cheers for the polite reply bro

 

Last edited: May 19, 2018

Slate digital vst3 in reaper (maybe other DAWs too), as I tested, have truncation problem at tails/quiet sounds. Easy to check it, if it is not reaper vst3 bug.

....

Resizable edit windows
VST3 introduces a new approach to plug-in GUIs though window resizing, allowing for extremely flexible use of valuable screen space.


Can you explain me this first? Does it mean I can't resize VST2, such as Meldaproduction and many others?

 

You forgot the /sarcasm there.

Only a blind Cubase fanboy would understand from the fact that "other DAWs support most VST3 features in VST2" as "Steinberg just has better VST3 support".

It's not other DAWs lacking in VST3, considering they also have those features. It's Steinberg lacking those features in VST2. How is lacking features a proof of superiority? It's the complete opposite. Wake up.

For example, VST2 is perfectly capable of side-chaining. And not just side-chaining, but routing anything anywhere. The only thing that VST3 has over VST2 in regards to routing is more than 1 MIDI port (i.e. more than 16 MIDI channels as input or output).

To use your own words: It's not VST2's fault that Steinberg are idiots and refuse to implement side-chaining into Cubase for it (the SAME spec, not changing 1 line of code), like you know, almost every other DAW does. (heck you can route ANY channel anywhere with Reaper, with VST2 and VST3, period)

@mild pump milk: You can resize with VST2. Don't listen to Steinberg or Cubase fanboys. This is why they can cause damage by spreading bullshit and misinformation.

 

Oh yeah, and I see VST3 processes audio data with 64 bit, as a new feature for VST3. But wait! VST2 does this too, as well as 80-bit for PSP MasterQ2 and Airwindows, as examples.
It is better they discontinued VST3 than VST2, and announced VST4 instead with obvious new features, optimizations, improvements and fixes and overall stability.

 

if implemented correctly vst3 has potential in future to be better but i don't mind vst2 or vst3 depending how good they run in reaper.

 

, love it,

 

Long long time Sonar user here... I can accomplish anything I need to do in sonar with vst2...I see no advantage of vst3 as Sonar is capable of much routing options always has been... In short my personal feelings is their is no advantage of vst3 in Sonar at this point cause as underrated as Sonar is it has been on its game long before vst3 was introduced supporting features for vst2.... \m/

 

I just want to note that the OP made it very clear: No "theorical" performance advantage but "factual" evidence of performance gain. In other words, the OP neither asked for what Steinberg nor Native Instrument nor any other developer claims. The OP was asking for our own personal experience with Vst2 and Vst3. A couple of members such as @Jaymz and @safran5020 and @Kinghtsurfer are on point here. They are providing to the OP the information that he or she was looking for. I personally have experienced performance issues with both, Vst2 and Vst3, on different platforms. Therefore, I can not make a blanket statement that Vst3 offers me a performance gain over Vst2.

 

Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2018

Calling me a fanboy of cubase isn't really an insult to me. Isn't it obvious? lol
Load a bunch of VST3 plugins , you will see a significant drop of resources being used, cpu as well, happens also when a vst3 plugin is not used, it means its not constantly running when not needed, its one of the reasons I prefer vst3 over vst2.
But yeah , the world isn't going to end if you use vst2, use whatever you prefer.
Have a nice day.

 

An attempt to logically understand the issues with VST3 plugins:

1st - A VST3 plugin doesn't work in any host (DAW):
Plugin contains basic programming errors or the VST3 standard has been implemented incorrectly.

2nd - A VST3 plugin works in host A, but doesn't in host B:
Incorrect VST3 programming or missing VST3 support in host B.

Conclusion:
If problems occur, they are due to a faulty implementation and not the VST3 standard itself.
If there were fundamental errors in the VST3 standard, there would not be a single VST3 plugin that would work properly.
From my (and other's) experience, however, more than 95% of all VST3 plugins work without problems in a variety of hosts, also in non-Steinberg's!

Comment:
I'm not a fanatic Steinberg supporter at all, but I generally welcome any progress in the field of music software, and this company has admittedly made a significant contribution to it.
So, if the Steinberg haters curse them as idiots and put down VST3, I think that's pretty unfair (nicely said)!

Hey, wouldn't it be a great idea to first find out about the general situation in the IT sector?
There you could see, which effort is behind it all and how fast everything changes ('cause it has to!).
Then you could imagine that only VST would remain the same for good - simply, because nobody would develop it.
Finally, you might ask yourself: Would that be better or worse?

 

Last edited: May 19, 2018

On my Studio PC (cubase/samplitude) I have all my plugins in VST 3 format. Very stable, works well.
On my laptop however, where i only use reaper, sonar and S1 - yes i am lazy and very scared with my dongle - I only use VST 2. I tried once to go VST 3 only. Mainly S1 made me regret it. Really unstable plugin behaviour and crashes.
Dont want to bash a daw here just telling my expirience. I am fine with VST 2 on my mobile rig now.

 

I Agree with @TonyG has stated it Depends on the platform used as to if Vst3 is superior or not... I can Agree with @Von_Steyr that in Cubase which i own and use too Vst3 out performs Vst2 in terms of CPU usage and stability... Sonar on the other side i can tell you is not as stable with Vst3 and really with the features it offers for Vst2 use i see no need for Vst3 as of now... Also my feelings are almost the same with Reaper as Sonar..