I like both equaly, actual one could argue that first song is not very simple at all it the actual music theory used is fairly complex ( the music language part)

to me regarding music, it is not the added detailed that determines if it is complex or not, it is the actual musical structure being expressed ( the music language part)

for instance you could have a one chord song that has a million notes per second throughout drums play fats drum solo the whole time and that does not make it complex it be a simple song because of the musical structure ( the language part)
then you could have a song with vocal and piano that is extremly complex with 50 chords many movements and rhythm changes yet no drums and two steady sounds( vocals and piano) and that could be very complex. ( yet everything is lowly and sparsely changing with few sounds at slow tempo
)

 

Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

you have to ask yourself, HOW COULD it ever be possible for a person to NOT be able to finish a song?
list out every reason you can imagine of how a person could end up in that exact situation, then see which reason applies to yourself.

"6- How many music nowadays are being created with purpose in mind and how many randomly?"

you have to evaluate each peice of music individually, then within each song you have to evaluate each moment the song passes becuase it is possible that wihtin any point for any legnth of time the writer could get distracted from the meaning "the point of" the song they originally had in mind.

"Does trying to finish a song mean "keep moving in the target line"?"

it depends on what you mean by "finish" and "target line" it depends on what process you followed to write it, AND if you ever had a main vision , feeling,experience the song was about at all! if you did not, that what could the "target line" mean for the song? if you had no intent for the song " finished" just means the moment you dont feel like dicking around playing with it anymore and decide your are finished toying with sound waves. BUt if you have a main vision and expression of a feeling a experience you had to make the song entirely about that will dictate when "finished" actually is , if a certain way you put it together doe snot mesh right with your original intent , the song is unfinished,.

 

I think every song or piece of music I have written has always had some purpose. Some vision. Some direction I was trying to guide it in. I used to never finish hardly anything. It was only after I learned to let the "car drive itself" did I actually start finishing songs.
I had to learn how to tell a story or express an idea in five minutes or less though.
Understandably, you have to learn your own method to create. If random ideas are your method, fine. But you still should have a vision. At the same time, don't be afraid of taking your hands off of the wheel. You have to temper both, I believe.

 

Please put aside your doting on the singer (seeing as it's only an example) and just answer this simple question, please.

How much knack and craftsmanship is needed to create sth like this (in years) and are you there right now? Is making such thing in your future plans?

I asked it because I've noticed that almost most of us are usually wandering around the sugar-coated loopy ideas than being serious to make something worthy and meriting.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2017

foster911..
wtf are you talking about?

 

.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2017

Your ideas about musical structure are strange.
Chords don't make songs more complex... Chords can make the only chordal accompaniment more complex...
It is just one of the dimensions of the songs and is actually the least important one (unless you are composing slow, ambient music - Wagner, Debussy, Ravel, Gil Evans etc).
Gestures (like these mastered by the virtuoso players and the idiots that may play out of tune, but are able to use the sound to express their feeling) are probably the most important aspect and they are lacking in the electronic music, because people leave the software to play the notation without performing anything. Rhythm, melody, timbre (even the finest music may sound ugly played by the simple timbres usually used by foster911) are also more important than chords.
Complexity requires all the ingredients to be somewhat developed and interacting - that's why someone can argue that classical 18th century music is not complex - rhythm and timbres are not very developed, it's based on formulas and cliches, made to please rich and snobbish aristocrats.
Complexity by itself doesn't make anything good music. I would take the simplest traditional pentonic tune over anything sounding like most modern classical/ free jazz and similar, which are complex and use expressive gestures, but intentionally grotesque and making the listener feel bad, because of the disharmony.

Foster, you probably need to go to a real musical teacher, learning a real instrument; also start composing simple tunes consisting of 4;8; 16; 32; 64 bars etc . In the end you may be able to make music that is not only melodic, harmonic, but also rhythmical, if you really want to do it, of course (for some people music is just a hobby and they don't really want to make real music, but just to play with the sounds).

 

Such a long title, such a long post, such a simple answer: if your music generates feelings in other listeners (others than yourself) then it already have & met it’s purpose. “This music is shit” kind of feelings does not count.
A “worthy” song is not related to how bog or small the effort of the producer was, or how it sounds or if you like it or not. “Gagnam Style” is a worthy song for sure since brought smiles on so many people’s faces.

In your case Foster, (I come here rarely but I suppose nothing changed with you since last year) unless you want to dive in a yet another dead end (connecting music-specific philosophy with the fart of noise) first step is to make music, if you wish to remain at making noise that’s fine too, but at least don’t ask these kind of questions that only apply to music.

Ps: regarding your “Chloe” video: Wrong question. And the answer is “how much craftmanship did YOU accumulated over these years? Enough to finish a song or tou’re still an envious troll?”

 

Thanks so much but I think the era has changed and now we're in the programmed music era that you've not accepted it yet. Physical instruments' sounds aren't in my wishlist. I admit that my sounds are not fully developed but I and everyone else using DAWs can do somethings we want that no one in the world can do by just their fingers.

Also every element of music is important for me. Harmony, melody, rhythm, sounds, eccentricity, etc. I also never seek to make music for simple listeners that usually want to memorize a tune and the melody is their main concern.

In every genre, style, albums, etc there are some good music and bad ones. Why do you always grouse about the music that you've not ever tried to make even one in that genre?

 

My enemies' count has declined and being conqueror for a long time is boring. Would you please rejoin this community and cheer us up. Making music without negative and inimical opinions doesn't elevate me.

 

"now we're in the programmed music era that you've not accepted it yet."


IF we are, that just makes it much easier( to have background in playing instruments writing etc.

 

i think your comment is interesting like to talk more about it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_gesture

as far as i can tell you are proving my point.
a "gesture" that your talking about means structural movement , which can only be accomplished through chord changes


MMJ

"to me regarding music, it is not the added detailed that determines if it is complex or not, it is the actual musical structure being expressed ( the music language part)"





"I would take the simplest traditional pentonic tune over anything sounding like most modern classical/ free jazz and similar, which are complex and use expressive gestures, but intentionally grotesque and making the listener feel bad, because of the disharmony."





so you are literally saying that you have not developed your musical ear. therefore when you hear more complex music language, you cannot tell what you are hearing so it comes across as being dissonant, hmmmm interesting .

there is no disharmony in jazz, jazz uses music as a language the way it actually works.

when i hear the simplest pentatonic tune , i just hear a steady note ringing out for 3 mins. ( because the WHOLE song is just V7 to I in a single key ( i hear the music structure underneath the detail)

when i listen to complex jazz, i hear notes slowly changing ( the notes i hear are the musical structure changing underneath the detail that is implied by the structure keys etc.)

in music you have your key it stats with a note as a reference point. next that note becomes a chord I.
next that chord represents 2 chords. V7 to I (tension to release or home)

next that V7 to I represents a ii V7 to I ( in order to add the rest of the 7 chords and functions )
next the ii = IV the I = iii and vi the V7 equals the vii% this gives us all 7 modes, all seven notes all seven chords.

next that ii V7 to I implies traveling through the cycle of fifths in order to enter other keys entirely.

if we begin in the key of C major we have CDEFGABC
our ii V7 to I =
DFAC or D minor 7
to
GBDF or g dominant 7
to
CEGB or C major 7

so in the key of G major (GABCDEF#) our V7 is D dominant 7
this is a replacement in the C majors ii so the new progression is V/V7 (d dom7) to V7 (gdom7) to c maj 7


so in the key of F major (FGA Bflat CDEF) our V7 is C dominant 7
this is a replacement in the C majors I so the new progression is

V/V7 (d dom7) to V7 (gdom7) to V7/IV (C dom7

now that we have this, a ii V7 to I can be added at every point we contain a dom7

key of Gmaj ii m7(aceg) V7 (d dom7) to I (g maj7) next
key of Cmaj iim 7 (dfac) V7 (g dom7) to I (c maj7) next
key of Fmaj iim 7 (gb-df) V7 (C dom7) to I (f maj7) next

now we have

aminor7 to d7 to gmaj7 to dmin7 to g7 to c maj7 to gmin7 to c7 to f maj7

next from here it just continues on and on adding in diminished chords and augmented chords and building up all the way to all 12 keys and all auxiliary scales , diminished, augmented, whole-tone, harmonic minor , melodic minor, etc. etc. etc.




ALL of this is implied by starting out in the beginning just with a single note C note as i described in the beginning.
this is the structure of music built in mathematically based on tension and release based on consonance and dissonance .

if you or someone didn't have their ears developed maybe things other than a single note ringing for 5 mins comes across as "dissonant" but in music structure there is a actual way dissonance works and does NOT work.




in music a dom7 chord resolves to another dom7 chord a 5th below.
a dom7 is the V7 of a key which implies a ii V7 to I
this means changing keys by a fifth is built right into music.

so any iim7 can be exchanged for a V7/V

you can travel through the whole circle of fifths by traveling counter clockwise making each note a dom7 chord than adding in the ii V7 to I of each

G7 to C7 to F7 to Bflat7 etc. etc.

than add in the ii v7 to I in between like i explained earlier.

this all comes from having a single note to start with.


next each chord in your key can be resolved to by a diminished chord ( this adds leading tones before landing on your chord)
I could go on and on eventually explaining the entire language of music AND it all is implied by the original single note you had.

this means anytime you go to write all you have to do i s pick a note, then thousands of implications are there built in the language of music for you to choose from to make music.
how much of this you use or how little of it you use to make a song would in the end be the thing that determined how "complex" the final song was.

if i wrote a song that was a c note repeating the whole time, that would be identical to writing another song with 3 chords the whole time.
cmaj7 to emin7 to amin7
the reason is those chords are equivalent . there is zero tension to home in playing that 3 chord progression.

BUT if i play v7 to I , or ii to V7 to I
that would be more complex than
cmaj7 to emin7 to amin7

so the cmaj = emin7 = amin7 the fmaj7 = dmin7 and the g7 = b min7 flat 5

( the fmaj7 and dmin7 also included in g7 and bmin7flat5)



if we take these equivalents and apply that to the ii v7 I
we get

fmaj7 to bmin7flat5 to emin7 to amin7 to dmin7 to g7 to cmaj7

or

face, bdfa, egbd, aceg, dfac, gbdf, cegb

or

IV , vii%, iii, vi, ii, V7 , I

that is the most detailed version of V to I

next we can travel through the keys with that progression

IV , vii%, iii, vi, ii, V7 , I ( G maj)
IV , vii%, iii, vi, ii, V7 , I(C maj)
IV , vii%, iii, vi, ii, V7 , I(F maj)
IV , vii%, iii, vi, ii, V7 , I( B flat maj)
IV , vii%, iii, vi, ii, V7 , I (E flat major)

and so on.....

as long as you start with a single note.
this is all built in the language of music for you to choose from at any time.



lets talk about dim7 chords

lets say we start with a gdominat 7
GBDF chord
we can sharp the 1, to G# then add the rest G# BDF if you reorder the notes you get
G# dim7 G# BDF, next B dim7 BDFG# next D dim7 DFG#B next F dim7 FG#BD
so four dim7 chords are identical
G#dim7 identical to g7 which means G#dim7 resolves to I or cmaj7
Bdim7 identical to g7 which means Bdim7 resolves to I or cmaj7
Ddim7 identical to g7 which means Ddim7 resolves to I or cmaj7
Fdim7 identical to g7 which means Fdim7 resolves to I or cmaj7


to expand it out further since the iii, and vi equals I (equivalent)


G#dim7 identical to g7 which means G#dim7 resolves to I or cmaj7, iii or emin7 and vi, or amin7
Bdim7 identical to g7 which means Bdim7 resolves to I or cmaj7, iii or emin7 and vi, or amin7
Ddim7 identical to g7 which means Ddim7 resolves to I or cmaj7, iii or emin7 and vi, or amin7
Fdim7 identical to g7 which means Fdim7 resolves to I or cmaj7, iii or emin7 and vi, or amin7


when we take this information in order to see how melody resolves on single notes.
each one these starting notes resolves to the final note
G# to C, B to C,D to C,F to C,
G# to E, B to E,D to E,F to E,
G# to G, B to C,D to G,F to G,
G# to A, B to A,D to A,F to A,

all this again is built into the language of music if i just started with a single C note

next the G# note contained in the dim7 chord we been using implies a C aug chord CEG#
if we expand each note to another key we have C maj key, E maj key, G# maj key
then each of their v7 to I, ii V7 to I,
each of their dim7 to I, ii, or vi resolutions, each one of their
expansions of V7 to I

IV , vii%, iii, vi, ii, V7 , I ( C maj key)
IV , vii%, iii, vi, ii, V7 , I(E maj key)
IV , vii%, iii, vi, ii, V7 , I(G# maj key)

i have just described to you the language of music , that is all jazz is.

this introduced traveling through the circle of fifths by maj 3rds. for example C maj key, E maj key, G# major key

next add in each ii V7 to I in between

now we can travel through circle of fifths by either 5th , or maj 3rds.
but lets look at traveling through the circle of fifths by a whole tone.

say we had in C maj key
a ii V7 to I
we could substitute the iim7 with the maj key of its tonic so from Dmin7 to Dmaj7 I ,
next add in the ii V i of each.

we start with dm7 to G7 to Cmaj7
next Dmaj7 to G& to Cmaj7
next (ii,V,I) Em7 to A7 to Dmaj7 to G7 to Cmaj7

now we can travle through the circle of fifths by 5th, by maj3rd by whole tone,

next lets look at traveling through the circle of fifths by semitone.
to do this all we have to do is change our vii% to a I of its own major key

so say we started in key of C maj ii, V7 to I
(now since a V7 is equivilent to a vii% (GBDF = BDF)
our V7 implies a Viimin7flat5 to V7 which means.
in key of C maj iim7, vii min7flat5, V7, I
in key of C maj DFAC, to BDFA, to GBDF, to CEGB

next our BDFA or vii min7flat5 can go to B maj key ( circle of fifths by half step)
this gives us

DFAC, to BD#F#A# to GBDF to CEGB

next add the ii ,V7, to I

Dmin to C min7 to F#7, to Bmaj7 to G7 to Cmaj7

 

Last edited: Nov 5, 2017

I can do it of course by my DAW but isn't interesting enough to attach me to itself. Also we've switched abruptly to the new era out of necessity to let everyone be able make music without much difficulties and hardship. I confess that we had to do it tactically to learn to make smart music so it will take time to fully discover this era's whole potentiality.

 

I don't know what was the point of the whole theoretical outburst - this is just your view and it's not useful for describing music outside of "some" 12et based styles (not all of them, good luck explaining Stravinsky, Bartok etc with your theories, people had to use the abstract mathematical theories (set, combinatorics, group, category) to develop a new musical theory that can describe and analyze this type of music ).
I think my ear is developed enough to catch the difference of 20 cents neutral microtones in the arabic music that I study in the last few months...
Sound waves influence our physical bodies and minds; I would prefer not listen to "demonic" music (most of the time).

Some sensitive people can even become ill from listening to chaotic, atonal and noisy sounds (like modern classical and "some" free jazz).

Gestures - things like vibrato, tremolo, all the different articulations and ornaments. Of course, chord changes can be also gestures. But I think that when people talk about musical expression, feelings and similar, they mean exactly this. Computers still can't play in the style of Horowitz, Coltrane etc, so you get exactly what you inputted - which means that the electronic djs will still make soulless music (foster can learn some cool chords, will they sound good without velocity and start time tweaking, if he doesn't humanize - I doubt it, especially with his nintendo sounds). 5 random notes > whole symphony, if you are master of your instrument. Listen to some traditional chinese, japanese of mongolian music - it's all about the ornamentation and articulations, not about chord changes or bigger scales (the funny thing is that they also created polytonal concept based on stacking fourths and fifths, but this is another story).

I don't know whether you are dealing with arranging music, but you should know fast chord changes are often detrimental for fast dance pieces and can confuse the listeners. Same with extended voicings - you can't get to appreciate the timbre before it is gone. That's why I said that slow, ambient music is the best for complex chord based styles.

 

@MMJ2017 I'm stupid to memorize such things. Would you please post video snippets instead of these complicated scriptures? I don't want to go to hell due to my illiteracy.

 

hello fine sir.

i will show you what the point was.
you had responded to a comment with this.

I then preceded to demonstrate that chords do indeed make songs more complex, AND how that is possible how it is built in the language of music, in such a way that is non-opinionated.

first, I don't remember saying that it was useful for describing music outside of some 12 tone et styles. I said what I actually said.
next, with the point I was making it would make no sense to talk about music outside of 12 et. ( didn't connect to the point i was making way back that you responded to.

I can dig it.

I fully got you here. ( most "free" jazz comes across to me as ( mofo just don't know what he doin yo.)

do you mean expressions?( tremelo, bending,vibrato,sliding) , ornamentation ( leading tones, embellishments, grace notes.)
yes i like those things what about them?

they could mean any aspect of musical structure. but say they "feel" because of a note vibrato and bend.
where did that note come from? why is THAT the one bending and have expression?
the answer is the musical language structure. ( the thing that create emotion is going from tension to release) yes expressions add it special sauce many things can .)
you can add special sauce once you have the sauce. the music language and harmonic chord progressions are the sauce.

nah. music is a complicated thing, people respond to all the things you said, plus they response to everything else.
you could have a simple well designed kick drum with steady beat and one melody in background and could make millions people go crazy with addition to it. (look at pop music made electronically)


"whole symphony, if you are master of your instrument. Listen to some traditional chinese, japanese of mongolian music - it's all about the ornamentation and articulations, not about chord changes or bigger scales (the funny thing is that they also created polytonal concept based on stacking fourths and fifths, but this is another story)."

i def value playing multiple instruments for myself but i dont hold that on anyone else and how good their method of sampling etc is.



"I don't know whether you are dealing with arranging music, but you should know fast chord changes are often detrimental for fast dance pieces and can confuse the listeners. Same with extended voicings - you can't get to appreciate the timbre before it is gone. That's why I said that slow, ambient music is the best for complex chord based styles."

yes i am "dealing" with every aspect of music myself.

true there are some circumstances when fast chord changes (depending on how it is built up) can be detrimental and confuse people.

but your the one wants to get into beyond 12 tone et, which DEF , detrimental and confuses the vast majority of average listeners also.

so it all depends on context of a situation , the listener(s) involved , their tastes etc.


"Same with extended voicings - you can't get to appreciate the timbre before it is gone. That's why I said that slow, ambient music is the best for complex chord based styles.""



i dont know what you mean here about the extended voices.

what that under certain circumstances that could possibly be detrimental and confuse people, okay i follow you.
but it can also be said that under certain circumstances any choice made could be a bad one, we have to take about a certain context to say more.

extended voicing in general is a pleasing thing that adds value to most people musical experience most the time.


there is nothing about "fast" chord changes ( i never said fast chord changes though)_

that inherently is confusing or detrimental for listeners.

chord changes is the harmonic structure.

i could have silence then one note comes in. F, it then goes down to A, the A goes up a little to B an upper G not plays in halfway while the B was ringing out and finally a higher E note plays ( just silence leading into simple melody)

now this short melody happening in a few seconds which is very sparse and simplistic and bare.
is a ii V7 to I chord progression in C maj key
the listener feels no different then IF you played the extended voicing version of the actual chords and the chords have multiple octaves (where each chord is 12 notes)
the end result feels the same emotionally
chord changes is the musical structure
in these 2 examples i gave the chord changes is identical yet the first example is asilence with a couple notes after another.
in the second exaple is all octaves version of each chord after another.
so going back to

"That's why I said that slow, ambient music is the best for complex chord based styles."""

the chord changes has nothing to do with what the listener is hearing but instead it has to do with the musical structure.
you can make 1 chord complex with crazy and fast notes going all over or have a chord progression of 7 chords changing fast but only actual hearing silence with a few notes changing.
this goes back to my original point and all the comments where i explained the point.

 

im just trying to think of where i could find videos snippets that go into all that let me see, ill gte back to you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIiKQqU4Kvc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1LBxW077N0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv0sp-zxax0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpgRMG5Oz1A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KtSefoO9Xg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUrHVLu7kPk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMOAsqsGEag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRUu8H8OqeA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urHCiAy3Wwc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXetg6_LE6A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YnDA1bZ1a4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHOW8EKJrIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmhLrWJ5Qis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi6piiWq90k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6LVI8REf4o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAWuEomArJ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXVxkGRhECw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdNfQuQ9bLo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6PPXy-mgr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsPSO_q95Gk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpVBC2RgxdA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHipRHp89rs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg3JU6mQdzM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHcwkzZ2Qms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skDgBOrvC5U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0v2t20cMNc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxNB_pg3TTU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaC6oqcV60A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DeITpT7S_M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMovx_pJaOs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVGWnwHpsRQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoqILFusV9o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hdHxqX8bkY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-mWICem4Sc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKsln-UJkjU&t=116s



after you go through that ill put more to get into the more advanced stuff.

 

Last edited: Nov 5, 2017