ALL of the amp sims are flat and 2d with no depth like real amp, cab and speakers mic'ed have!

can you explain how a mono recording can be 3d? depth you mean touch sensivity ?

 

The Kuassa ones are unfairly little popular.

My bad. I meant very high gain. Thanks for the correction.

Due to the engine of AA there's still a long way to go before it can do big distortions/nonlinearities. The computational complexity rises a lot. Kemper Nebula? ;-)

Because of my dated computer I tend to forget the resource hungry free ampsims like Taranov's, but they sound great.
And Mercuriall the same, has some of the best physically modeled preamps.
And that reminds me that Mercuriall is the only free (and perhaps commercial) developer that has made a cab sims with nonlinearities (besides AA). Clearly it has similarities with Nebula Cabs in the sense that the developer "sampled" extensively a real Amp.

 

Last edited: Sep 19, 2017

I think it's the magic of the air moving in response to the speaker pushing it. Maybe some of the room tone breaks through.
A guitar amp and specific speaker cab reacts differently depending on what's being played. If you reamp a DI that you've also processed with an amp sim, and a/b them against each other, you will hear that tangible something that's missing in the sim. A certain 3D-ness/depth to the mic'd one. Especially if you are a guitarist/or very accustomed to the sound of a live amp. Closest I've found that gets this is the nebula cabinets I've tried. But they don't get it 100%.
@superliquidsunshine has shared that he'll sometimes room mic his monitors to achieve this "air" with other types of tracks. I wonder how this would help an amp/speaker sim track.

 

im late to the party, but why not mearly test all those, or pick 3 of them, and take them for a testrun and put them thru thier paces and then chose the one you find sounding "best" to your ears

 

Ok 3d depth from a mono speaker. I can not believe this.
Anyway here is a patch I made and a remix of toto white sister.

Does this sound like a AMP sim or real Amp?

 

Last edited: Sep 21, 2017

show me an amp sim that can do this, in a mix or not

that is 4 , kt88's at 200 watts and over 700 volts of electricity homie.
speakers pushed until breakup the cabinet is breathing and 3d sounding thousands tiny details that get heard in a mix,
this idea nobody can hear the difference in a mix is bull.
the original 1959 bassman, tell me an amp sim by itself or in a mix can do this? yeah right!

how about the jtm45? not even close my nicca!

that is electricity flowing through glass you are hearing, traveling through IRON and paper speakers pushin air! friend!






here is a video just for fun!

 

Last edited: Sep 19, 2017

I am not saying an amp is not a little better. Especially when you are standing in front of it and you
feel the pulses move your body.
If you realize that there is a loudness war going on and dynamics are stripped away also when mixing most of that harmonics gets ripped out since it competes with the over all mix. To my ear I can not hear a difference but that is me.
If you love an amp by all means use it. but for you to tell me that using a amp sim is hurting my sound. please get real.
I use what I like, and you should also.
The outcome is the same. You write music and I write music.

 

As many have said already I feel SGear elicits the best most natural feel when playing, but its not the quite the same as the real thing.

However there is a cure........I have a Lexicon Signature 284 recording amp and a MiniMat head, both have a number of outputs, and I use both of them (mainly the Lexicon) set really clean into various (mainly SGear) bits of software, and the result is magic, all the feel of the real thing and all the tricks software can do for ya, and the cab emulations just light the sound up......................absolute bliss.

I'd urge anyone who plays to try getting a few valves in on the process, the difference is night and day.........all you need is a head with a D.I. or even something like a Boogie V Twin, which I've also used..........bung a Klon in the chain and WOW, no more mics.

 

I agree, use whatever you feel suits your music. Absolutely. Amp sims are a great way to go if you don't have access to the gear to mic, or you simply don't wish to go to the trouble for whichever reason, neighbors being likely the most popular reason. Hell, I was initially using them because my recording-fu wasn't strong, and I didn't have the mics I needed to get good results. So I figured let someone else struggle with that and I'll just use the IR of all their hard work.
What changed my mind was after I got the gear (decent preamps, mics, a good room, etc.), then got some experience using it, my mixes came alive with an energy that definitely wasn't there using the amp sims. The micing contributed to a sense of depth in the mixes. This is just my experience, therefore to be taken with a grain of salt. I would have really had to work with the sims to get them there, so it became a matter of micing gets me there easier, more realistically, and quicker. BTW, I'm working primarily in the Rock Genre currently.
I still use amp sims while composing. It's just a great workflow for that. And there was one instance where I had a tone I had gotten from one of Olonga's Fender Twin Nebula Presets that I just couldn't achieve with my equipment/micing technique (I don't have a Fender Twin). So yeah, they definitely have their uses. Thinking back, I should have mic'd my monitors for that one.
Also, I've been playing guitar for 35 or so years. My ears are likely spoiled from hearing/playing live amps for so long.
But if you ever do get the chance, and have the time to kill, I'd recommend testing out micing a live amp on your own stuff just to do the comparison. Especially if you are working with guitar-centric music such as Rock, Metal, etc.

 

Along the lines of what @Seedz wrote, recording the preamp out or fx send of a guitar amp works quite well too. Hitting those input tubes is what it's all about. On amps that don't cut the signal to the power amp, when a cable is inserted into the fx send, I tried a volume pedal connected to the fx return and it seem to work.
Once this line signal is recorded, simply perform a non-impedance-mismatch reamp by completing the signal back to the power amp or fx return of your amp to properly record the tone. Once the inspiration has passed and you have time to make minute movements with those mics.

 

I'm sorry but that "real electricity flowing through glass, nothing can come close to it, real paper, folks!!" -stuff is nonsense. When I play a random spotify playlist I can't tell whether it is a miced guitar amp or software processing and I'm pretty sure that neither can you.

Seems that you're really into that stuff, talking about real paper moving air etc. You're actively fooling yourself. This is liki hifists tricking themselves into believing in all kinds of weird stuff because of brand logos, marketing slogans and price tags and then utterly failing in proper blind tests. The human mind is stronger than ears.



Also talking about guitar amps, most of guitarists who compare their "real" rigs to the software they use in their bedrooms do not monitor the software loud af through lets say 4x12 cabinets. There's your difference.

 

Good Call brother >>> @digitaldragon >>> ill tell you Vadim Taranov makes some of the Best amp copy sims ive ever herd >>> SpeakingTone wise only>>>some dont respond as good as others but He all but nails the tone of the Real Amp >>>Real Talk>>>i payed him a few years ago to Build me a Custom Pignose and he Nailed it lol... if you Email Him with an Amp model you want and pay Him he will build you whatever you want ;) Hes got a Good Ear and thats the Biggest part of His amp copies is just that >>> Mercuriall is Awsome too along with Lepou and other free sim builders>>> I think the most important part of any amp sim is the player,style of playing and cab tho >>> just like in Real live Amps >>> you can Run a Half ass Guitar head thru a monster Cab and get Good Tone>>> But if you Run A great sounding Guitar Head thru shit speakers the sound is also shit lol \m/ 80% of my productions is live amps thru good cabs>>>but if i need somthing else or a lil more CUT in the mix im not ashamed to say ill use a guitar Sim cause a lil something extra sometimes is what is needed ....Digital guitar these days is pretty killer i think \m/ >>> hybrid Real Guitar And Amp Sims together sound Massive \m/ Ill record and Get the Drummer and Drums sounding the way i want then Bass Guitar and sift thru Amp Sims and cabs till i get a Killer Tone then i try to match the Tone with Live Amp Recording and maybe a lil Sim in there here and there ;) >>>the way i work \m/

 

Last edited: Sep 19, 2017

I also have been playing for 35 years and my ears are most likely shot. LOL. I do remember the days I used to use amps. I really don't have the space any more for it, unless I get the new Vox Adio Air GT 50W. I tried ti out the other day since a friend bought it. Nice and lite and sounds pretty good.

 

its not non-sense are you aware of how a real amp signal path works? , now compare that to a digital signal with soft clipping.

I don't know what you mean, because you haven't included enough details into this specific context for me to know what context it actually is, what it is we are comparing, what playback system we are listening on etc. you have made so ambiguous, it to not really be saying anything at all. please get into a very specific context If you want me to honestly evaluate whether i can tell the difference or not ,under said conditions.

I don't know the connection between this specific context you are describing which is not the context i had talked about, i cannot see the connection.

I can try to be more clear about what I am describing and which context that is.

you start off with good recording digital system .
you get high end guitar amplifier and cabinet and speakers and mic and preamp record it.
, next play the same thing but straight into amp sims of any variety.
you compare as many variables as you can fathom with each other, from the time you are playing while recording how it feels to you how it re-acts.
then you compare the recordings themselves on as high end speakers and playback system as you can.
you try to see what the differences actually are in reality itself , yes you may have preferences but you ignore that and try to find the real answers to your questions about how amp sims compare to the real thing.
If the results where to show that the amp sims i already spend an absurd money on, sound as good or better than the real things, SWEET you can build a special rig for recording and live shows with small tablet and interface going into PA and In ear monitors.
you don't have to lug around heavy delicate temperamental equipment breaking your back eating up your gas money. .
IF you find amp sims to not be as good you use the expensive amp gear you already have paid the money for and use amp sims for demos or certain recordings where you want special effects etc.
I am heavily into both real amps building them and using them for decades, i been heavily into amp sims for almost as long and designing them and using them even if not as good as real thing i still use late at night or weird sound effects or if i can only play for little while that day . the day amp sims can match the best of the real thing or supercede it, will be exciting to me i can't wait for it, but im not going to pretend it has already happend when i have spent hundreds hours making my own dsp and vst and know for fact ir not the same not as good, or the thousdands hours i have used the other companies sims i have bought or the ones i have stole. i still enjoy many of them and use them for demos or late at night or industrial guitar sounds or weird effects etc.
show me an amp sim that can re0create this in a way you or I cannot tel the difference between this clip and the amp sim.put drums to it if you want.

think of an analogy of a real event vs a video camera version. a photo vs a crayon drawing yes the general charactoristics are there, but the fine grain deatil is missing one is simplistic representation of the real thing, nothing wrong with the in certain context at all we call it art.
an amp and cab mic'ed off compared to amp sims is same thing the general characteristics are there but none of the fine f=grain detail and texture and three dimensionality, but the problem what that is almost the entire point of guitar is the texture the 3d aspect the tiny fine grain detail adds something an expression of art. the player uses the tube amp the transformers and the speakers pushing air how it re-acts to his playing on the fly in the moment to effect the way she plays the way she interprets the meaning in the music.

if you dont believe me that i have developed almost 100 amp sims ill give you the links right now.
I worked with a a team called Acmebargig, the software was called Headcase. the amplifiers i made for it was under my name MMJ.
here is the software ( main amp sim)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lfkfeaztwdtqrp0/AADfKfInioRqexGtfs12PYK8a/HeadCase 1.54 FULL?dl=0




here is the amp sims i made for it.

i cannot post all 100 right now but here a bunch
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u47qpgcbzf7x28c/MMJ BOUTIQUE 2014-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/04mlsii0h92aqmd/Framus Cobra 1.01 c-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdfvwte62jmluou/Soldano SLO-100 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rf75tidelio2h06/MMJ TWISTER 1.0 2014-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/98oahxq9xvmojem/BOGNER uberschall 1.1 A-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2nvred4d01c0p1n/BlackStar 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jbf0nxp6kkhhntr/CASWELL #39 1.1 b-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yyxy42lork2c20n/DEICIDE 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/04mlsii0h92aqmd/Framus Cobra 1.01 c-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i3y84s4bwcs2hof/Fryette Pittbull 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ki1ynz5lhqsv2qx/Friedman Dirty Shirley 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ie5ayk1tvpeqb1/Krank Krankenstein 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b91zu4oqrlw8y8i/Marshall 2555 1.0 A-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hs34gqbdoiyweyl/Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2rjcf0jlkctzmn2/ORANGE ROCKER 100 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dk064u4oe2xxoc0/Sunn ModelT 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/42r0mwe7cdgf1sk/Rivera Knucklehead 2.1-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/czkg7ss8ejuyf81/JCM 800 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jtdss4bxw1o8rp7/Fender Twin 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b977fqque0oeliu/MMJ_FORTIN3022_MOD-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/viewtopic.php?t=20350
http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/viewtopic.php?t=16284
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lp8v493wszaspc2/ALTER BRIDGE 1.0-2.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/czkg7ss8ejuyf81/JCM 800 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/51cnqou8li0eodo/cinderella gypsy road 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9bbegka3ucmkoaf/MARSHALL dsl50 1.1-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2t9lfi0ptbzbd4f/TAPP Iratus 1.0-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bflv2vvcytmrlzi/MMJ Brutal 1.0 2014-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bflv2vvcytmrlzi/MMJ Brutal 1.0 2014-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f0vw4rszafi49lv/mmj modern clean 2014-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2pzyvvue5klstsg/mmj modern metal 2014-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u47qpgcbzf7x28c/MMJ BOUTIQUE 2014-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/90vyb5ua449bdjt/MMJ Classic Lead HW-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bflv2vvcytmrlzi/MMJ Brutal 1.0 2014-1.Freud.Jpg?dl=0
http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/viewtopic.php?t=20350


these amps are each a model that you load in headcases vst and even adjust all the parts of inside amp they free homie.


second i worked with the team that designed grndmachine

I have been working on more recent amp sims but not at liberty to discuss it because the products have not come out yet.

 

Last edited: Sep 20, 2017

of course a mono recording is 3d, (or has the potential to be) there is dimension of frequency (low to high) , there is the dimension of volume ( loud to soft) ,and there is the dimension of ambience ( dry to reverb) it is where these dimensions meet the transients and the fine grain detail texture that a sound "comes to life"
ever compare same vocal through a sm57 compared to a 3k dollar tube microphone? the difference is the 3d the magic is in the transients . where frequency meets volume meets the spacial meets the fine grain texture.

the real high end tube amp and cab and speakers pushing air and mic'ed off, is NOT about dynamics you can level out the sound afterward and lose none of the realism because the sound is different as softer and loud notes are picked ,where the pick is hit at near the bridge pickup near the neck pickup what angle of the stroke if finger picked etc. you could put a limiter on to make the audio flat , but your not changing the SOUND of what happened when you played harder or softer or what pick ,angle of the pick, tip of the pick or finger nail or fingers etc.
amp sims don't have any of that. and all that detail stays audible in a mix. that why no amp sim sound slike led zepplin II or black sabbath master of reality or the beatles or peter frampton. or eric clapton.or eddie van halen.
sure you can get amazing sounds, it just a plastic fake like it was sampled type sound, like the guitar was from sample library type tone.(when you use amp sims)that still might be just right for lot of things though i do love amp sims, always with the hope of them getting better, but when you spend time with real handwired tube amp high end transformers alnico speakers fat ass cabinet cranked it is godly.

listen to this you hear multidimensional detail

a real tube amp is dealing with electrons quantum level , you would need a quantum computer to recreate that in digital plugin. a real amp sound the speaker is mechanically pushing the air and it gets converted to sound only afterward but all the non-linearity of the whole siognal flow through tubes high voltage , transformers, speakers,
that would take so many billion of calculations and non-linear 2nd order differential equations of quantum mechanics ( calculus converted into dsp NOT previously solved.) you would either have to have the computer render the plugin ) no real-time) or have quantum computer to physical modelling of what is actually happening with real tubes real electricity flow of electrons and real mechanical action and harmonics of paper speakers in a box. it is extremely complex for a computer. you need each bit doing many process like quantum entanglement.
the methods we are using to create amp sims right now are simple block of pre-solved calculus, literally 2 dimensional dsp. ( for realtime)
you can sum up the non-linearites make up the fine grain 3d texture of any audio




here is experiment to do yourself to find out single mono audio is 3d ,
first cover one ear have your friend talk next to your ear, compare that to a recording of him saying same thing with speaker next to your ear, what is the difference?
the recording of him talking is flat and lifeless (compared to him actually talking into your ear)

 

Last edited: Sep 20, 2017

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Or why.

I'm sorry but I was very clear and it seems you are just avoiding addressing the obvious. I said that when I play a random playlist on spotify (meaning I don't know for a fact how it was recorded before even listening), I can't hear for sure whether the guitar has been recorded by micing a guitar amp or if it is digitally processed.

I also said that you probably can't either.

This is not complicated stuff and does not need any further context.

I do not know whether you can accurately tell the difference. Or if you can't, if you can be honest about it. Please blind test yourself. The fact is that most - if any - people can not tell for sure.

Another fact: there are thousands and thousands of amazing sounding recordings with 100% digitally processed guitar sounds. Also there are thousands and thousands of recordings with shitty sounding miced guitar sounds. And vice versa.

The underlying point: there is very little or no actual difference in the end product. It's all about how you use the tools, be it digital processing or micing a guitar amp, not whether you use real amps or software. And because there is no or very little meaningful difference, all the grandiloquent talk about "real electricity flowing through glass etc." -is just hot air, irrelevant buzzword nonsense.

 

What did John McEnroe use to say:
YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS.

 

so what does playing a random playlist ( how does sound get to your ears ?) and not being able to tell if it real amp or digital , have any connection to anything at all except guessing at which equipment was used. so say i cannot play random playlist ( how is the sound getting to your ears from this playlist?) say that i cannot tell if the microphone was 45 dollar dynamic made in china or if it was a 1946 tube microphone that is worth 5k dollars, what would this exercise accomplish? ( that i didn't know which was which microphone)
thats number 1. ( that you must have a point with this playlist concept, you must think it connects to the conversation in some fashion right? what is that connection?
(another thing, does your playlist even have 50 percent of the songs using amp sims? if not you cant tell the difference because all the songs that come up are actually real amps duh.)

number 2. how do you get a playlist to your ears? some kind of speakers right? are they dollar store ear buds? are they 10,000 dollar in ear monitors with 16 speakers per ear bud? are they 500 dollar electrostatic earphones? next, where is the sound getting to the speakers from? is it a shit mp3 files with dogshit DAC? or it is 5k dollar player with 96k 32 bit DAC and transparent preamp? using a transparent wav, or flac file? do you
NOW see why i said this..... MMJ previous

"..I don't know what you mean, because you haven't included enough details into this specific context for me to know what context it actually is, what it is we are comparing, what playback system we are listening on etc. you have made so ambiguous, it to not really be saying anything at all. please get into a very specific context If you want me to honestly evaluate whether i can tell the difference or not ,under said conditions..."

Im trying to get your perspective , but i still have not.

what is not complicated stuff?

what is your definition of "this" , sure "this" is not complicatated at all it is a single word with four letters, so i guess you are correct the word "this" is not complkicated "stuff" , what is "stuff"? another four letter word, sure those 2 four letter words with zero context are not complicated
clap clap clap clap.fart.oops my bad.


Imagine I said

I have assembled random playlist i cannot tell the difference between songs were the singer was missing teeth or ones were they had all their teeth and I don't think you can either!

what does that tell us in the end?

that there is no difference having teeth or having no teeth.

retarded right?
the only thing it ACTUALLY informs us about, is the ability to guess if singers missing teeth, that we cannot tell that IS the context, that data tells you ZERO about anything other than your ability to guess and be right.(we would have to differentiate between dollar store ear buds or 10k dollar in ears, mp3 or flac shit DAC or 96k 32bit etc.)

your entire situation is the topic of " a human beings ability to guess which equipment was used , by listening to random songs) lets assume you actually setup all the variables correct to start with had high end speakers equipment, had 50 percent of the songs amp sims, everything to be proper experiment.
the problem is " a human ability to pick form random songs which equipment used." has nothing to do with this other topic " the actual differences in reality ,between real amp setup, and amp sims" there is no connection there. you cannot pick from a random playlist, if the guitar was $100 or $10,000, so does that mean they are the SAME? NO> you cannot pick from a random playlist if the drumkit was $100 or $10,000 , does that mean there is no difference?> NO. you cannot randomly pick from a playlist if the writer had knowledge of music theory or is ignorant of it and instead just auditioned each note until the song was written, does that mean the 2 are the SAME? NO> we can just go on and on thousands of examples, and with all thousand, you can never make a connection between " human ability to select from random playlist" AND " is X the same as Y" how is X different from Y" you never can establish a connection.

 

Last edited: Sep 20, 2017

Iti s not ambiguous, you are just muddying the waters with your weird walls of text -posts. I have no idea what kind of equipment you use to listen to music. It's not my business.

When I listen to music on random playlist I can't tell for sure whether the guitars have gone through a miced amp or whether it is 100% digital processing. I do not know, but I would guess you can't either, whatever equipment you happen to have. The fact is, most people - if any - can not tell for sure.

Again, please blind test yourself. Use any equipment and method you want but make it a true blind test, I don't care.

You keep claiming there is a massive difference:

ALL of the amp sims are flat and 2d with no depth like real amp, cab and speakers mic'ed have!

etc.

If that's the case, pretty much everyone with working ears and little experience should be able to easily tell the flat digital processing from 3d real electricity air paper glass magic. In the real world, people have no fucking clue whether a random professionaly produced let's say post 2010 guitar song is real amp or digital. The magic seems to disappear the second you're not watching "real amp mojo" -titled videos on youtube, doesn't it? Because whatever difference there is in the end product is negligible.

 

For me, Amplitube 4 is the king, a lot of amps, a lot of tweakings and it sounds close to the real gear (check videos on youtube) . But TH3 is cheaper, and it sounds really good, and it's very light in cpu usage. And I think the positive grid plugins are overrated, really overrated.