how old are you? i been studying ruperts papers and his work since before 1995

he is good person i like him , i study his work for decades to see if he uncovers something

it does not mean i accept morphic fields theory

 

An interesting thought lol -

A doctor is famous for using magic water to treat his patients. The water is magic because he says it’s magic.

But surprise. Many of his patients benefit from his magic water. Some experience more relief than they get from the most powerful painkillers. These are real benefits, observable by the patient, the doctor and by external reviewers. The magic water has no side effects, it’s just water, after all. But powerful medicines often have strong side effects.
It’s a ‘placebo effect’ when we limit our view to the water. The magic water is not a medicine. The benefits the patient receives are simply ‘placebo effects’, effects we do not understand.
When we expand our view to cover the entire situation, the patient, the doctor, all aspects of the illness and the treatment protocol – and we will find the actual source of benefit. When there is no mystery, no lack of knowledge there is no placebo effect. There is only the real effect. The water is a fake medicine, but it did not cause any effects, so there are no placebo effects to be explained.
Placebo effects are “positive responses that we do not understand”. Explaining them away by saying “placebo effect” only hides our lack of understanding. Claiming “fake medicine” does not add knowledge or value.
A medicine can only affect the physical body, but a treatment can affect more than the physical body. The painkiller medicine is designed to treat the body, and only the body. Like most medicines, it is based on the physical aspects of pain.
The Hierarchy of Healthicine recognizes that health goes beyond the body, and includes the mind, the spirits, and even the communities of the patient. A headache can be caused by mental stress, or by spiritual stress, or even by community stresses. Community stresses can cause spiritual stress, leading to mental stress, resulting in physical pain. This can result in pain, not just in the head, but also in the stomach, exacerbating an ulcer, or the fingers, exacerbating an arthritic condition. The magic water does not address any of these causes or causal links, but talking to a doctor, or a nurse in the waiting room, might address them, or begin to address them, leading to an improvement that is ‘not understood’. It cannot be understood by looking at the water. It cannot be understood by saying “placebo effect”.
We typically study the effects of painkillers in clinical studies.
We find a group of people with pain, and test the effectiveness of the painkiller on their pain. If everyone’s pain is physical, based in the body – the painkiller will have a consistent effect. But painkillers do not have consistent effects. Some pains do not have physical causes, and painkillers are less effective on these patients.
When we study every person who receives positive results from the ‘magic water’, we learn many different reasons why magic water treatment (not magic water) can be effective. The treatment might support the patient’s spirit, lifting their mental status, and helping them to cope. They report less pain. The response is real. The treatment is real. The treatment produces the benefit.
If the patient’s headache is caused by drinking too much last night, the patient has a hangover – and is suffering from dehydration. The cure? water, magic or not. The magic water can actually cure some headaches.
When we look at a painkiller treatment, we can clearly see that some patients, those whose pain is not in the body, cannot benefit from the painkiller. But, they might benefit from talking to the doctor, or talking to the nurse, or even due to the passage of time from initial diagnosis and prescription to improvement. The painkiller might dull the pain in a person with a hangover, but it does not actually cure the dehydration. It does not provide any information to the patient on how to avoid those headaches in the future.
Once we understand, there is no placebo effect. A placebo effect is by definition, something we do not understand. The magic water is a “not medicine”. It did not cause the ‘placebo effect’, because there are no placebo effects. The magic water treatment is not a placebo. It is a real treatment, powerfully effective for some patients.
Does this mean placebo effects do not exist? Yes, and no. Placebo effects exist until we understand them. Then they cease to exist.

 

A placebo is anything that seems to be a "real" medical treatment -- but isn't. It could be a pill, a shot, or some other type of "fake" treatment. What all placebos have in common is that they do not contain an active substance meant to affect health.

How Are Placebos Used?

Researchers use placebos during studies to help them understand what effect a new drug or some other treatment might have on a particular condition.

For instance, some people in a study might be given a new drug to lower cholesterol. Others would get a placebo. None of the people in the study will know if they got the real treatment or the placebo.

Researchers then compare the effects of the drug and the placebo on the people in the study. That way, they can determine the effectiveness of the new drug and check for side effects.

What Is the Placebo Effect?

Sometimes a person can have a response to a placebo. The response can be positive or negative. For instance, the person's symptoms may improve. Or the person may have what appears to be side effects from the treatment. These responses are known as the "placebo effect."

There are some conditions in which a placebo can produce results even when people know they are taking a placebo. Studies show that placebos can have an effect on conditions such as:

• Depression
• Pain
• Sleep disorders
• Irritable bowel syndrome
• Menopause

In one study involving asthma, people using a placebo inhaler did no better on breathing tests than sitting and doing nothing. But when researchers asked for people's perception of how they felt, the placebo inhaler was reported as being as effective as medicine in providing relief.

How Does the Placebo Effect Work?
Research on the placebo effect has focused on the relationship of mind and body. One of the most common theories is that the placebo effect is due to a person's expectations. If a person expects a pill to do something, then it's possible that the body's own chemistry can cause effects similar to what a medication might have caused.

For instance, in one study, people were given a placebo and told it was a stimulant. After taking the pill, their pulse rate sped up, their blood pressure increased, and their reaction speeds improved. When people were given the same pill and told it was to help them get to sleep, they experienced the opposite effects.

Experts also say that there is a relationship between how strongly a person expects to have results and whether or not results occur. The stronger the feeling, the more likely it is that a person will experience positive effects. There may be a profound effect due to the interaction between a patient and health care provider.

The same appears to be true for negative effects. If people expect to have side effects such as headaches, nausea, or drowsiness, there is a greater chance of those reactions happening.

The fact that the placebo effect is tied to expectations doesn't make it imaginary or fake. Some studies show that there are actual physical changes that occur with the placebo effect. For instance, some studies have documented an increase in the body's production of endorphins, one of the body's natural pain relievers.

One problem with the placebo effect is that it can be difficult to distinguish from the actual effects of a real drug during a study. Finding ways to distinguish between the placebo effect and the effect of treatment may help improve the treatment and lower the cost of drug testing. And more study may also lead to ways to use the power of the placebo effect in treating disease.

 

"The Hierarchy of Healthicine recognizes that health goes beyond the body, and includes the mind, the spirits, and even the communities of the patient. A headache can be caused by mental stress, or by spiritual stress, or even by community stresses. Community stresses can cause spiritual stress, leading to mental stress, resulting in physical pain."


what is the information we have about about spirits and spiritual?

 

imagine a person they are thinking about a situation taking place through storytelling in their thoughts , but in a way that is negative to the point of feeling sick.
imagine the same person they are thinking about the very situation taking place through storytelling in their thoughts , but in a way that is positive to the point of feeling happier more joyful which increases endorphins and makes them fell stronger healthier.
both are the same situation what is different is the storytelling.
think of the sentence " You are being selfish" ( as a thought which creates feelings)
compared to the same identical situation
think of the sentence " You are meeting your needs without consideration of others needs" ( as a thought which creates feelings)

 

Put simply an unknown phenomenon. Yes sometimes belief in the adequate system can bring about positive adaptive responses.
It's not always simply linked to body chemistry changes brought on by a belief system.
So put simply treatment itself or belief in a system can have real world biochemical effects that cannot be explained on a molecular level or as result of brain function directly as of yet.
Therefore effects are real but imagined to a large degree. Once the belief system is destroyed or explained rationally the effects cease.

Therefore Is it real - Yes and no lol

or

If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. – Wayne Dyer

 

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I'm old enough to know him and his work well...

 

The Value of LIFE
----------------------

My position on the value of life, is based on demonstrable evidence.
we live at the classical level of physics, even though that is emergent from the quantum level, and we are made of atoms , there is no connection to value and what we are made of, I hear all the time " yer just particles in motion what is the pint of anything?"
the point is we LIVE at the classical level, the level of earth oceans trees fields streams and life. animals , and the most amazing beautiful animals human beings, I value life and I value human beings because what we found out about reality , is the amazing process of evolution of biology that the universe is able to (partial) comprehend itself through us, than an ape species homo-sapiens would be able to marvel at the the planet we live in and its inhabitants. We have spent a lot of time studying the planet and solar system and galaxy and universe at all scales. What ewe have found is that natural process evolution created us and we seem to be rare, that is intelligent life like homo-sapiens.
this is a value of scarcity , we evolved to love and care for each other also. But once you have a being like us being able to have rational thought we can demonstrably see the value of human life and animal life.We can see all life is amazingly valuable.

Morality.
-------------
the interaction of human beings on a large scale such that it is possible to have a society , not just small groups of extended families and friends and tribes, we can have larger towns and city's and countries and the whole populous and interact each other due to morality.
we look at the way human bodies work in reality the aspects of human being called physical, emotional, and psychological. GOOD is what is objectively helpful and BAD is what is objectively harmful simple right? yes it can get complicated with specific situations and we do our best to deal with it. But the most important thing is to see the value of life, the value of morality based on the way we actually work, the value of the planet.

Rational Morality
-----------------
we can see that it is actually more intelligent to interact with people in helpful meeting the needs of everyone instead of VIOLENCE manipulation, domination, force and harm. Not only because of the way our bodies and brains work but the consequences. IF we dominate and control and manipulate and harm others, the will be retaliation every time. There will be endless cycle of violence.
Violence is the LEAST intelligent option in any situation. there will create endless cycle of "good guy" and bad guy, enemy image mentality where " you killed my... so I kill your..." this is UN-intelligent.Instead we can evolve through rational means to look at the situation from the standpoint of everyone's needs and requirements to survive be healthy treat others fairly.

 

Last edited: Apr 25, 2017

i guess we both enjoy him

 

There is no mystery here, positive effects of placebo are dependent of what the brain is capable of as far as healing goes. You would not expect missing arms and legs growing back even if someone belived it would you? And the effects you are talking about are simply real, they are not imagined at all. Not even a little bit.

 

I wonder if that works on mad hungry ice bears. Or oil in the desert.

 

I'm glad you understand so implicitly as the worlds leading experts don't fully understand it at all and a slightly extreme example you raise possibly.
I suppose I wouldn't but in the same fashion I guess I wouldn't also state in real terms that I can objectively and fully appreciate on all levels how someone missing a limb could many years later still feel it hurting so badly in the many ways they report once it's gone I guess and that's the whole point.
Pain is subjective and not simply dependent on neurological pathways.
It doesn't matter one iota what I believe or what you believe but the experience is both very real and possibly subjective to some degree.
As long as you have some compassion then that's all that matters I guess

 

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Yes it does work in the desert. It's called a mirage or an illusion

 

I am inclined to agree with you. But lets for argument's sake think of someone who is mentaly healthy, but been completely paralyzed except he can blink. This person tells us he does not want to live because he does not find his life worth living anymore. Lets say there is no reason to think he will get better or change his mind and no reason to believe what he says is false.

My take on it is that it is the well being of the person that is of value, not the life per se. When it comes to an animal suffering immensely from a deadly wound is it still amazingly valuable or should it end as soon as possible? I would be interested in your take on these situations?

 

Last edited: Apr 25, 2017

I do not claim to fully understand it. I used inductive reasoning to arrive at the conclusion. Do you have anything against inductive reasoning?

That placebo is real and not imaginary follows simply by the definition.

I certainly agree with you that the feeling of having pain in a missing limb is real. But again, with what we know about the brain does not make it strange in any way. It makes perfect sense, no?

No hard feelings, I hope?

 

Last edited: Apr 25, 2017

Fair enough... : )

Do you suppose it also works on the mad hungry ice bear someone stands eye to eye with having nothing to defend himself with?

 

its like my father, he had all but 3 spinal cord discs crushed and after living that way fro decades and getting worse he took his life because he couldn't function, so when it comes to suffering I consider that falling in the area of harm even though its not some one harming them but something IS, so it gets complicated.
there are unusual circumstances for which you cannot get the body to heal itself or medicine to heal that a person decides to not suffer anymore or animal in suffering.They shouldn't be forced to suffer this is sensitive so it has to be judged case to case basis, again i categorize this under the level of how the body works ( their particular) which includes physical ,emotional, psychological, and then look at what is helpful and harmful to healthy happy quality of life.

 

Dear MMJ2017

I have some questions for you and if you don't mind, please choose one of the alternatives:

a - light or darkness?
b - egg or chicken?
c - time or space
d - theism or atheism

Can one live without the other?

The problem with this kind of questions is that they are not well formulated... and men's values of measure themselves.

Are your songs based on:
- a feeling or a mathematical formula?

Are you here to:

a - learn from others or promote your own opinions?
b - market research...
c - get more experience as a NSA intern?
d - are 36 pages enough or not?

So, I'd like to know , briefly, what have you learnt after all ...
- and how this is going to affect your life and your music...

We discuss the universe and are not be able to answer some simple questions...

There are plenty of places better suitable for this kind of topic, either the Church, a Science paper or as a guest of Bill Mahler show.
Don't you think it' s about time to say thanks to all and move on...?
...you know, people are trying to make some noise around here...

 

Last edited: Apr 25, 2017

"The problem with this kind of questions is that they are not well formulated... and men's values of measure themselves."

I agree, that why what you are saying does not apply to this thread because that was part of the consideration for such a thread.


"
Are your songs based on:
- a feeling or a mathematical formula?"

what do you mean by" based on"?
all music is mathematical formulas and all music is feeling also


"are you here to?"

what you didnt read the very first page to get all these answers you have asked?



"c - are 36 pages enough or not?"

I dont know ask all the people that continue to contribute to it bring up excellent comments and discussions that cover the entire human experience to every aspect of reality.



absolutely all your questions ( minus a couple related to present time) are answered in the first page of the thread.


"- and how this is going to affect your life and your music..."

please read from page 1 onward you will know exactly and it can effect you the same way.


"
We discuss the universe and are not be able to answer some simple questions..."

I dont agree



"
There are plenty of places better suitable for this kind of topic, either the Church, a Science paper or as a guest of Bill Mahler show.
It' s about time to say thanks to all and move on... you know, people are trying to make some noise around here..."

who is being hurt or harmed? what "space" is being taken away from the music topic?
what right do you have to tell people where and what they are allowed to think and talk with others about? you know 36 pages of text that is roughly 12 mb of file size should i send you a money order for 2 cents for the server storage?

last time I checked it is free will agents coming here contributing

"you know, people are trying to make some noise around here"

remind them they can read any other thread and go anywhere or NOT go anywhere they want and so can we. they can complain or come here and comment many is an option.
thank you for you comment sir what does Kapellmeister mean im new here?

 

Last edited: Apr 25, 2017

It's your call...

So, I'd like to know , briefly, what have you learnt after all ...
- and how this is going to affect your life and your music...

"I don't agree" is a very poor answer!

So I must assume you haven't learnt or changed your opinion after 36 pages...
Just a promotion of your own points of view, disguised as interest.

I have other things to do. Good luck....

 

Last edited: Apr 25, 2017