it depends which part of the subjective experience you are referring to, the part that is the same for all humans ( the way human mind actually works)
or if you are talking about the subjective part ( what it feels like what we experience)

 

"so subjective experience is not outside the realm of Reality (or at least "the opposite of fiction") if other subjects can have similar experiences using the same methods? Interesting."


that is correct it is possible depending on the situation and what is being talked about






"The science of yoga has provided techniques for "re-unification" with the divine for thousands of years. It may take a few years/decades of disciplined practice but there's plenty of demonstrable evidence to support it.s"


exactly , we may come to find out that yoga objectively does helpful things , the same helpful things for every human ( minus disabled ones that cant do it etc.) it could be the case about yoga we find things out that are objective reality.

 

I hold the position regarding fiction vs reality or fiction vs not fiction, that we could come to find out anything. ( that is to say learn more we previously did not know) I am not saying what is possible , because we have to demonstrate what is actually possible. if it turns out that there was a type of supernatural that we demonstrated even through a different system than science that was just as reliable, not based on " i don't know" but where we could write a textbook on it like we would for chemistry or electronics, that is to say based on knowledge through testing and probing reality and it was demonstrable that is did not conflict with reality but a part of the whole picture of it.
I would be happy and ready to accept it like I do anything else that is a part of reality.
This is why we need to differentiate between fiction and not fiction, so way can learn about the REAL supernatural IF it is there in reality or whatever else we dont know. I want there to be a soul and afterlife as much or more than you but the honest way to get there , is to let go of superstition, bad beliefs based on fiction so that we can make room for the supernatural that is actually there that we learn about, or accept it if there isn't one there at this time.

 

yes , it is just that you are not using your senses because you bring attention to only the awareness part of you, however in a less deep meditation, ( or when you first get involved with it and learning how to do it,) you are exactly the same as normal just with no thoughts no feelings you have awareness and a strong sense of subject object distinction, when you begin to go deeper you purposely break that down not using vision not hearing not feeling of skin etc. you block outside world so that you can focus solely on awareness.

there is demonstrable evidence by science for many years studying this deep state of focus solely on awareness deep meditation. when they do repeatable tests om many many people at that same exact level the tests show synchronicity of the entire brain neural pathway , the only other time close to this state oddly is when listening or playing music . I have noticed since i been meditating daily for 15 years at least twice day for ( 20 mins session) sometimes more ( upto 2.5 hours.) that synchronicity that occurs in meditation can be used when you come out your brain connections increase and it has a measured impact on performance creativity intelligence clarity focus etc.
this is IMHO WHY all the superstitious beliefs about meditation came in ancient times because it is so transformation to the human condition.
the ancients felt it was a supernatural event.
It is of course for limited time but if you meditate everyday you get those benefits that often even if i only lasts a couple hours.

 

Last edited: Apr 21, 2017

When you lay down to go to sleep every night, that moment RIGHT before you fall asleep is pure awareness no thoughts no feelings . because we have no training or desire we get so relaxed we just go to sleep ,then once we are asleep later during R>E>M> our mind becomes active again.

To learn to meditate all we have to do is learn that a relaxed body is NOT a signal to immediately fall asleep haha at first when you try to meditate you will fall asleep the first 25 times haha
the interesting thing after you become good at meditating you can begin to learn LUCID DREAMING , this teaches you a lot about reality vs fiction. in lucid dreaming you create anything you want even more detailed that real life if you wanted. This is demonstrable evidence that our experience by its lonesome is not indicative of reality itself, it informs the position that we need demonstrable evidence to say something about reality itself.
I hear a guy yelling in the background( hey hey! what if in our lucid dream we get demonstrable evidence of that environment and accidentally think it is real? )
well there is something strange about lucid dreaming yet objective. lets say in a lucid ream i am wearing a watch and i look closely to see the time or i look at the wall at a clock to see the time. you just get a scrambled bit of symbols and squiggly lines that don't represent anything. that is actually used as a tool when learning lucid dreaming, so that you become aware inside a dream because something s are different in a lucid dream, you cannot read words in a book or time on a watch , and you can use that to tell your brain " i can wake up now inside of this dream" but referring to the question , a lucid dream is very fragile. If you try to get demonstrable evidence you will either wake up , or you get gibberish like looking at your watch and getting weird symbols that dont represent anything.I f you manage to stay in it you might even look up to see you are in different location that you were before trying to test for demonstrable evidence.

 

Last edited: Apr 21, 2017

Another interesting aspect of lucid dreaming pertaining to this topic. is that you can bring your attention to a specific sense usually one or two only at a time and the rest are kind of blurry. What i mean by this is you can have very clear vision but not much for the sense of motion. Or say you had a flying lucid dream and a very intense sense of motion and physics and gravity , your hearing and visual would be extremely blurry. Those examples are "hyper focusing" on something beyond realism and the rest suffer , that also effects the duration which is to say if you have a lucid dream of falling or flying even more real feeling than reality would be . The chances are you are going to wake up in few moments.

My first hyper real lucid dream that was " more real" feeling than reality.
I found myself in a forest. I began to create a log cabin just one floor and one large open room ( created by imagination only not hammer and nails) but then once i was done I went over and sat down looking at the floor, then one board then the grain and as I focused in I was astonished by the color and detail it was like I have never seen in real life. I got so excited after a few moments I woke up fully excited and energized . The first thing that came to my mind was in my previous research of fractals how a simple equation can lead to unlimited detail with very little computation.



At that moment it occurred to me that although i knew there was a tremendous amount of computation being done by my brain as i could tell how it effected the lucid dream experience and how i got excited and woke up. The aspect of fractals and computation could possibly be a key component in how we perceive "detail" in normal life experience, for instance if we look at our blind spot of vision for which the human visual system " fills in the missing gaps"

https://www.google.com/search?q=hum...zrbTAhUM94MKHedwA2QQ_AUIBigB&biw=1920&bih=955


https://www.google.com/search?q=hum...XIx4MKHYteAl0Q_AUIBygA&biw=1920&bih=955&dpr=1

One could see the brain would not need much neural processing to use a type of fractal processing to have a extraordinary amount of detail , even in our visual blind spot.
I have since went on to use the concept of fractals in everything from music writing to dsp code concepts and even graphic design
tangent stops there haha ( although it is important to the convo)

 

~19 pages in I find myself roughly agreeing with you overall. However I disagree with your wording/interpretation here. I find the subject/object distinction breaks down by the mere act of observing the observation of awareness. I'm not blocking the outside world from coming in. Awareness boundlessly expands outwards. Words/symbols are tricky here (which is one of the reasons I turned to vedic/yogic litterature after an kundalini awakening experience because they have a tremendously detailed terminology for non-ordinary states of consciousness) but my position is non-dualistic, at a deep level of "reality" there is no distinction between subject and object - Awareness permeates everything. The illusion of distinction happens at the level of Ego which identifies with the sensations of the body, the thoughts, the emotions and so on.

I like your bluray analogy but unless consciousness research has progressed immensely over the last cpl of days, I'd consider Emergentism a working hypothesis at best. It's an area where "we don't know" fits the science best.

Gotta sleep man, lots of interesting stuff in your posts, I'll be back tomorrow with a few more cents maybe

 

thank you sir, I cant seem to find anything to really disagree with you , I understand what you mean by subject/object distinction I am not going to say that i disagree that it all becomes one, from my perspective if i have any information from outside world i get the distinction if I am so forced on awareness that it feels like just awareness I attribute it to the focus you have good points there,

In the context of which we have been discussing in this one comment and like i said because all the focus is put there, i tend to agree, but I can easily ficus little less and it comes into focus a bit but distracts the mediation Just want to say i highly respect the vedic tradition even though i disagree regarding the supernatural elements, but I get that is representing something to them/ much more poetic like than say Christianity there is a beauty in the vedic that i def appreciate.


"I like your bluray analogy but unless consciousness research has progressed immensely over the last cpl of days, I'd consider Emergentism a working hypothesis at best. It's an area where "we don't know" fits the science best."

I can understand your hesitation but If your okay with it i can send a tiny fragment of info that might spark a fire in you to dig into that if you feel like it


I appreciate speaking with you

 

I think it is about 88 percent likely it pushes me past the tipping point, but for many years i fought it because i desperately wanted souls and afterlives to be real that is just where i came from but just wanted to say i dont believe it is absolutely certain.

 

I 've heard worse but i will indulge in your charade one last time. The posts are there, the only one thinking of god as invisible men in the clouds is you and it's really pathetic to say otherwise. Mocking what you don't understand doesn't help your case.
And dude, you may were playing pentatonic when you were 16, i was practicing Lydian dominant, harmonic bebop minor/major, Ionian, Dorian ,Frygian the whole fucking lot etc etc. Theory is one thing, technique is another. You should stop trying to teach a teacher with yt videos lol, unless you know exactly who you 're talking to. What you don't grasp in this little story with the young boy and his guitar, is called transcendence, and it is very real, and oh look, it is NOT explained in your "pentatonic video". Feel free to google it as you seem to offer everyone an abundance of google and wikipedia info lol. And so, indicating that instructional video you obviously took these lessons and now you know (as you wrote it), "the language of music how and why every song works the way it does and be able to play any song you know" ? Why don't you surprise us with your knowledge by posting some of your work? I am all ears.
Lastly, creativity, while it has its place in art creation, is not where artistic creation root lies. Creativity is used to put your ideas together. But ideas don't come from creativity, they come from inspiration and whether you like it or not inspiration is inexplicable.Many try to explain it as a "chemical reaction" causing a certain "activity" of the brain, but all have failed to prove so because they simply cannot recreate it in action.
I have played and worked with hundreds of musicians and met thousands. The vast majority of artists who 've achieved something substantial in their careers, somewhere along their life acknowledge the existence of the "supernatural". Only because one way or the other they have been touched by "it". Just dare to ask me who, and i will post a ton of pages of artists thanking God, Allah, Buddha or whoever it is, on their album's backsleeves/inside notes or interviews etc. What is really true, is the testimonies of people. Progressing one step further, one would say the testimonies of unbiased people. You are not one of them, not matter what you are playing it, most of what you write is plagiarism and google "maps" lol.
So, talk is cheap man, i can show you quickly how i was "touched" in many ways. Among others i have produced enough albums to pick one of my worse for you and lets compare our "dicks" once and for all lol. Let's hear it. Then you 'll know if there is a God or not.

 

@MMJ2017Sounds like you been watching a lot of Star Trek I.e. Doctor Spark. So now where getting closer to your form of religion, dianetics...started by Ron l. Hubbard, which became the Essence of the Mormon church, they call it Reaching a level called clear, where you feel nothing or have any emotional stimulus. Nothing is new under the sun, repackaged psychotherapy. Hitter also took part in this type of thinking and we see the results. The title of this thread is very misleading,you already have a preconceived disposition and dare I say belief in the field of psychotherapy.

 

Last edited: Apr 22, 2017

"the only one thinking of god as invisible men in the clouds is you and it's really pathetic to say otherwise."

Fair enough, I will let YOU define your god sir.

"Mocking what you don't understand doesn't help your case."

I am sorry.

"And dude, you may were playing pentatonic when you were 16, i was practicing Lydian dominant, harmonic bebop minor/major, Ionian, Dorian ,Frygian the whole fucking lot etc etc.'
well then you were very advanced for your age,

"Theory is one thing, technique is another. You should stop trying to teach a teacher with yt videos lol, unless you know exactly who you 're talking to."

okay, I am sorry. I made a mistake.

"What you don't grasp in this little story with the young boy and his guitar, is called transcendence, and it is very real, and oh look, it is NOT explained in your "pentatonic video"."

Okay but it sounds like when you picked up the guitar you were advanced.

"Feel free to google it as you seem to offer everyone an abundance of google and wikipedia info lol. And so, indicating that instructional video you obviously took these lessons and now you know (as you wrote it), "the language of music how and why every song works the way it does and be able to play any song you know" ? Why don't you surprise us with your knowledge by posting some of your work? I am all ears."
sure, i will look through and see what I can find.

"Lastly, creativity, while it has its place in art creation, is not where artistic creation root lies. Creativity is used to put your ideas together. But ideas don't come from creativity, they come from inspiration and whether you like it or not inspiration is inexplicable."

Okay im open to your point.

"Many try to explain it as a "chemical reaction" causing a certain "activity" of the brain, but all have failed to prove so because they simply cannot recreate it in action."

I think I can understand you.

"I have played and worked with hundreds of musicians and met thousands. The vast majority of artists who 've achieved something substantial in their careers, somewhere along their life acknowledge the existence of the "supernatural"."
Im just trying to listen to you and get you.

"Only because one way or the other they have been touched by "it". Just dare to ask me who, and i will post a ton of pages of artists thanking God, Allah, Buddha or whoever it is, on their album's backsleeves/inside notes or interviews etc."

Point well taken sir.
"What is really true, is the testimonies of people. Progressing one step further, one would say the testimonies of unbiased people. You are not one of them, not matter what you are playing it, most of what you write is plagiarism and google "maps" lol."
I am sorry If i upset you it was never me intention.


"So, talk is cheap man, i can show you quickly how i was "touched" in many ways. Among others i have produced enough albums to pick one of my worse for you and lets compare our "dicks" once and for all lol. Let's hear it. Then you 'll know if there is a God or not. [/QUOTE]"

I understand, I am very sorry that i upset you i didnt mean to i am just taking in your points and thank you very much for them sir. I appreciate you passion, again I am sorry If I upset you that was my mistake. I value your voice in thiis discussion.

 

Last edited: Apr 22, 2017

Not so much those particular shows ,But I value a lot of science documentaries and the fiction I love is Time Travel related so point taken.
I don't know that I identify much with mr. Hubbard, maybe i should look into it more in depth. very interesting thoughts about the topic I appreciate them thank you.

 

guys and girls........ lets leave the superstition at the door.......the 2000 year old goat herds tale...pppssshaawwww

 

The only way to win in a religious vs non religious argument, is not to take part. This is because any mention of the subject causes strong feelings in a lot of people. Which in turn leads me to the conclusion, everyone should be entitled to their views providing they don't inflict them on others which, is why what I believe remains what I believe, and I cannot be swayed from those beliefs.

I think..

 

One of the most plain dumb and offensive suppositions?

i'm out good luck

 

So, are you saying the moment when hitler had his first thought that jews where inferior, that thought was NOT fiction?
OR
are you saying that when he had that first thought he differentiated between fiction and NOT fiction , and he was justified ?

I/m just trying to understand how me saying Hitler had a mistake in thinking is offensive?
it is frightening that his mistaken thinking was the foundation of his actions. disgusting actions.

im sorry if your offended I am not picking on Hitler at all, we just know it is a fact he was mistaken in his thought.
All discrimination , all bigotry, all violence is mistake in thought.


to hurt a person is no different than another hurting you. to discriminate is like someone discriminating against you. they have no foundation in reality but fiction only

If you want to know what is wrong with manipulation, racism, bigotry, discrimination, domination, violence, just ask the person on the receiving end. to account for reality is to account for all variables in a situation when evaluating.

we could mostly END, discrimination, bigotry, racism , all discrimination, and violence
If we teach children in school the value of differentiating fiction vs not in their thought process while young . give examples of how those mistaken thoughts lead to people doing terrible things and how is was wrong.

you show the children that when evaluating the situation you remove the specific individuals and evaluate this interactions of the people as if you could be either person interacting in the situation .
example there is a situation of which 2 people interact. one of the people has a thought of violence and acts on it , harming the other person.
we evaluate it it from the perspective for which we could be either person.
we look at the situation itself. we evaluate it from the perspective of human interaction.

 

Last edited: Apr 22, 2017

Well if you like time travel then you aught to read the Bible, there a few instances of real time travel in there. Jesus himself used it a few times. find out what your missing out on before you just abandon it(lack of knowledge). The things your into are more fiction than anything, there basically theories and a lot of what ifs. How can biblical life be fiction if prophecies come to past,which is the acid test for unbelief? GOD anticipated everything that man would come up with, too live under the assumption that he does not exist, which when you do believe haven not yet seen him, is called faith. God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him, but without faith its impossible to please him( meaning you'll never know while on earth). Listen I like true science, new discoveries and time travel movies,but I don't bet my life on the universe being put in order by a collision of atoms and billions... of years later where here. that to me is more science fiction or a made up fable than any comic book you read. The universe, planets , people and animals have a design to them, (would you agree?) which is impossible without a designer.

 

I guess you and me could write a book together and write what we think will happen in the future and some of our propositions could be correct?

May I ask what prophecies in the bible you mean is proof of what?

 

Thank you i appreciate it sir

I have read the bibble many times and all the religions holy books , yes I agree fantatsic stories in there sir.




"The things your into are more fiction than anything,"

could you explain more what you mean by this kind sir?



"How can biblical life be fiction if prophecies come to past,which is the acid test for unbelief?

i dont know what you mean by "prophecies come to past" by this do you mean that something was written and then later on someone read what was written then did it? or?



"GOD anticipated everything that man would come up with,"

the bible does not show this. god had to flood the planet because he didnt know man was going to be evil. he didnt know lucifer would become satan , we didnt know eve would ge the fruit.



"too live under the assumption that he does not exist,"

I dont assume he does not exist I look at the world around me and how it works, after all IF he made it , the way thing work should match with him making it right?


"which when you do believe haven not yet seen him, is called faith. God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him,"

reward and punishment IMHO is a human creation, any higher intelligent being cant do them, reward and punishment means you have no free will. if you have free will BUT you go to heaven is you do what god wants is that FREE will? it is a bribe. if god sends you to hell IF your bad is that FREE will? or is it a threat? maybe you have not read the whole book yet , or maybe you have read it in sections do you read a lot of books? how long would it take to you get a direct translation from Hebrew then read cover to cover?


"but without faith its impossible to please him( meaning you'll never know while on earth)."

it is not that i don.t have faith i want souls and afterlives to be it is just my faith has nothing to do with reality itself. reality shows there is no god. what I am saying is this topic is about removing my opinion, i want a afterlife to be real but a lot of things we want to be real are not automatically real correct?


"I don't bet my life on the universe being put in order by a collision of atoms and billions... of years later where here"

well, I think i understand what you mean things in reality that are so much larger scale or smaller than us is very hard to wrap our head around. we think the world should make sense to our tiny brains , but we have to adapt to reality it wont adapt to us. I really like talking with you and your good points you have .

"The universe, planets , people and animals have a design to them, (would you agree?) which is impossible without a designer.[/QUOTE]"

yes they def have a design, that design is the laws of nature or ( the way things actually work) our living cells that arranged to be us operate in biology, but when you zoom into cell it is laws of chemistry that operate same with DNA its laws of chemistry at work. the design is there for sure but reality shows us there is no intelligent design, but i like speaking with you you have goods points to discuss sir.
we haven't found a single event in the universe that was accident before it was all done by ( the way things actually work)which has been demonstrably shown to have no mind

 

Last edited: Apr 22, 2017