Sure, let us put it there, with the tooth fairy and the flying spaghetti monster.

 

A few thoughts come to mind touched by this non-audio thread:
Some people crossed over, as in - no measurable brain activity. NDE is the acronym.
Some say that experience was more real in a sensory way than anything they ever experienced before or since.
Some say they saw and talked to God. Some of them were atheists since forever. No more after.
Some saw events of the future that came to be or those that were outside the sensory range of their at that moment dead body.

Some people are aware of their awareness and intuitively know that awareness will not come out of matter unless it lies there in invisible form.
Some people say they understand that mind can know and experience only that which is moving. So in a way the knowledge is only relational. Mind may have an idea about how something might be useful or how it is in relation to something else but not what it is in itself.

As long as it exists mind is sampling and resampling the sensory world and the internal representation is a very tiny sample library of an ant in a vast sensory world which itself is a grain of sand in a universe of data beyond senses. Even that small sample library is being corrupted by ever increasing errors of lost, distorted or mostly unindexed data not to mention problems of uncalibrated sensory apparatus and compression algorithms which dramatically differ among individuals to the point where people have to stop and spend a day defining a compression symbol for atheism which will get distorted probably by tomorrow that is if they ever come to the illusion of a "shared reality".

>> spend at least 2 hours per day meditating and by that what i am describing is
>> laying down bring my awareness to my body letting all thoughts go until there is no thoughts,
>> only the feeling of being present just a feeling of "being" many times i stay in this state for
>> many hours on accident and come out rejuvenated like i slept for a whole nigh


So when you meditate and your mind stops what do you do, how do you know that you exists and what makes you restart?
Why don't you rejuvenate forever?

 

@n0xin: Schroedinger's cat thought experiment.
Although, the outcome scientifically was a half dead/half alive probability.

 

I don't see why people care that much, either way. Surely it is a personal matter and makes little difference to anything (does it matter if electrons were created by "god" or not, or if he "directs" them?)

It only matters because it has a socio-economic aspect, and as such is political. And this thread is antagonistic (even though I am an atheist). Maybe religious folk are more easily persuaded of the benefits of social housing, equality, world peace, say? That matters more to me. There is nothing to say a rejection of God (of whatever sorts) leads to "good". So what does it matter? Newton believed in God, the Greeks believed in many.

I would challenge anyone to tell me how belief in god could make any difference to anything (outside of personal internal experience). How does belief in god make a difference to anything?

 

I don't care if somebody belives that a fucking turtle fought against a destroyer of worlds for protect the universe , if that person isn't racist, homofobic or doesn't want to make a mass shooting for me is ok

 

Of course; nothing strange here imo... since we are talking about GOD

- The moment You tell that God is alive, your run into troubles... the same goes if you say god is dead
...so, better let him be dead and alive at the same time... seems the best solution, unless someone is on a mission to reveal some groundbreaking evidence that would confront one or the other option

 

there are going to be many instances where reality works a specific way and yet we have no way to be justified accepting the proposition that reality works that way , maybe we havne tlearned enough and the c

when i say "there is no god" im referring to the ones that have been purposed that could possible interact in such a way as us to know the difference based on reality so basically any falsifiable gods that have been purposed throughout history , if it is the case that saying none of them exist i am very open to being shown wrong, but if instead one participates in conjecture just to invent a type of god unfalsifiable, and defined in such a way as to be identical as what we would see if that god did not exist , then while i cannot say those do not exist i can say reality operates identical to if they did not exist .

 

"I don't care if somebody belives that a fucking turtle fought against a destroyer of worlds for protect the universe , if that person isn't racist, homofobic or doesn't want to make a mass shooting for me is ok"


i can understand what you mean morality is a large issue , but i put forward secular morality is superior to divine commandment , that morality is a word which describes human interaction in such a way as a society is possible, where the way our bodies and brains work , defines what is helpful or harmful psychologically , physically and emotionally regarding human interactions with each other.

now when we get into issues of racism homophobic and violent domination these tendencies occur from a human misunderstanding fiction vs not fiction or fiction vs reality, they have a thought and accept it as real even though it is false or fiction, but if evaluated or even shown the flaws all those tendencies can be removed , the problem is when a person can invent imaginary beings all bets are off they have introduced a type of logic (or illogic) where anything is justifiable.

 

I will demonstrate that religious extremism actually stems from just believing in the religions. in order to not be an "extremist": people have to change their beliefs to not match their religion .

1. mortality : human beings life a life then die and are gone forever this is why we value life and hate death, hate killers and murderers.
believing in god with a soul and afterlife set of beliefs means they believe there is no such thing as death. take Christianity. you live life worship jesus then when you "die" what literally takes place is that you teleport from earth to heaven in the presence of your lord. so Death is denied. they change death from meaning the end of life forever, to teleportation to heaven, if you murder someone you are literally teleporting them from earth instantly to standing in front of their god. what this means is that human life has zero value and death is impossible to murder would be to literally transport the person to heaven in front of their god which to them would be the most beautiful experience ever possible compared to life. many do not think much about this but the reason why killing is so bad is because you are forcefully ending their life against their will, but based on christian definition ( plus others) that kind of killing is impossible, to kill someone is to literally give them the most amazing experience beyond what they ever had living and a ticket to heaven for eternity.

 

"
I don't say, there is one or more God(s) and I don't say there are not.
What I see is, that in the name of god(s) millions of people were killed. And the killing is going on. I don't see the necessity of god(s) if he/she/they aren't able or not willing to stop the killing in their respective name."



i really understand your point it is only recently i am willing to say there is no gods souls or afterlives and the reason why is first the truth of the matter the reality we all entered into with no choice of how things works is one where there is absolutely no demonstrable evidence for gods souls and afterlives, and because there is nothing demonstrable , to have the thought " there is some god, soul afterlife" stands identical with any fictional proposition " the walking dead's rick grimes is a former police officer"

 

"
A few thoughts come to mind touched by this non-audio thread:
Some people crossed over, as in - no measurable brain activity. NDE is the acronym.
Some say that experience was more real in a sensory way than anything they ever experienced before or since.
Some say they saw and talked to God. Some of them were atheists since forever. No more after.
Some saw events of the future that came to be or those that were outside the sensory range of their at that moment dead body.

Some people are aware of their awareness and intuitively know that awareness will not come out of matter unless it lies there in invisible form.
Some people say they understand that mind can know and experience only that which is moving. So in a way the knowledge is only relational. Mind may have an idea about how something might be useful or how it is in relation to something else but not what it is in itself.

As long as it exists mind is sampling and resampling the sensory world and the internal representation is a very tiny sample library of an ant in a vast sensory world which itself is a grain of sand in a universe of data beyond senses. Even that small sample library is being corrupted by ever increasing errors of lost, distorted or mostly unindexed data not to mention problems of uncalibrated sensory apparatus and compression algorithms which dramatically differ among individuals to the point where people have to stop and spend a day defining a compression symbol for atheism which will get distorted probably by tomorrow that is if they ever come to the illusion of a "shared reality".

>> spend at least 2 hours per day meditating and by that what i am describing is
>> laying down bring my awareness to my body letting all thoughts go until there is no thoughts,
>> only the feeling of being present just a feeling of "being" many times i stay in this state for
>> many hours on accident and come out rejuvenated like i slept for a whole nigh


So when you meditate and your mind stops what do you do, how do you know that you exists and what makes you restart?
Why don't you rejuvenate forever?

"





very interesting aspect to talk about thanks for bringing it up!


"
Some people crossed over, as in - no measurable brain activity. NDE is the acronym.
Some say that experience was more real in a sensory way than anything they ever experienced before or since.
Some say they saw and talked to God. Some of them were atheists since forever. No more after.
Some saw events of the future that came to be or those that were outside the sensory range of their at that moment dead body.
"



So please don't take this as attacking you personally ( that happened before that why i bring it up ) im only going through rational discussion of what you have brought up.

it is called Near death experience because a person body and brain was damaged to the point of almost dying . a damaged body and brain will give you all kinds of fictional experiences even more vivid than reality, take LCD take DMT take mushrooms take eating pure THC and the list goes on when we change the way our brain works and /or damage it in a way where it cannot function everything is haywire chemicals are released endorphins hormones are going mad this is what a near death experience is. what a person goes through while on drugs says zero about reality what a damaged brain and bodies experiences says nothing about reality, our regular experience and thoughts say nothing about reality we have to test and probe reality to see what the answer is this is against our will the way reality works,


"
Some say that experience was more real in a sensory way than anything they ever experienced before or since.
Some say they saw and talked to God. Some of them were atheists since forever. No more after."




people "SAY" every combination and arrangement that words can go in but the only combinations that are not fiction, are the ones that match reality or the way things really work and the only way to tell if it is a match is to test and probe reality to see what the real answer is. lets say an earthworm could think based on its development that is is some type experience to be and earthworm . imagine a blackness all around you while you force your body to borrow long tunnels , all of a sudden a shovel blade comes through the ground cuts you in half! "holy shit!" yo think a white blinding light shines like you never seen before ( the opening from the ground where the shovel came from) the pain is unbearable but a calm feeling begins to wash over you etc...

what i am trying to get you to fathom here is that any experience from an agent is a tiny sliver of information compared to reality itself, and what happens when you do not account for all the variables in a situation that actually exist in reality means you necessarily form a false conclusion .



"
Some saw events of the future that came to be or those that were outside the sensory range of their at that moment dead body.
"

this is very funny i love it! i always fell like "ahh, you little devil trying to sneak that in like there is all these magical things happening like this and all over the world that cannot be accounted for!"

but here is the facts no matter what people say they believe or say what happened, i will tell you exactly what would have happened throughout history if it was actually possible to see the future of what will happen OR get information you are not privy to.

1. lets go back to cave dwellers no one in the history of human beings back then meditated of had these godly experiences where they seen how electronics work how disease works how refrigeration works and then changed humanity abruptly.
2. no one in the bible had the information that all reality on our scale is built from living cells, and how disease works, billions of lives could have been saved if jesus said " wash you hands well people or you will get disease" no they thought it was evil spirits.
3. there is no E= MC 2 written on cave walls from 40,000 years ago not one single person knew that until Einstein and yet that information about reality changed lives forever if you do not understand the significance of that i suggest you learn nonlinear differential equations in calculus to see what that equation teaches us about reality that has turned our life around, if any ancient person from any time period had the facts we have from testing and probing reality they would have changed the world back then.
most significant of all, ALL human progress has come from testing and probing reality to see the answer is the way things actually work, while zero was accomplished by anyone claiming to see future to have special powers of getting information without needing to learn there has been no discoveries that changed the planet and everyone's life based on meditating in a cave and coming up with computers for example, no human being worshiped a god and was given the understanding of how electricity works, all those people didn't take showers they had no soap they lived short and miserable lives compared to how we live now.

there is no such thing as getting information without learning history would have been much different the countless lives list just for thinknig disease was evil spirits and blood letting throwing people in volcanoes to appease the angry gods

 

"
Some people are aware of their awareness and intuitively know that awareness will not come out of matter unless it lies there in invisible form.
Some people say they understand that mind can know and experience only that which is moving. So in a way the knowledge is only relational. Mind may have an idea about how something might be useful or how it is in relation to something else but not what it is in itself."




i see the words and the order you put them in but i dont know what it is supposed to mean





"As long as it exists mind is sampling and resampling the sensory world and the internal representation is a very tiny sample library of an ant in a vast sensory world which itself is a grain of sand in a universe of data beyond senses. Even that small sample library is being corrupted by ever increasing errors of lost, distorted or mostly unindexed data not to mention problems of uncalibrated sensory apparatus and compression algorithms which dramatically differ among individuals to the point where people have to stop and spend a day defining a compression symbol for atheism which will get distorted probably by tomorrow that is if they ever come to the illusion of a "shared reality"."



i cannot fathom what it is you are trying to say you have hot arranged your words in such a way as to mean only one thing, this means i can get 5 different meanings all mutually exclusive out of what you wrote it so ambiguous i cant get to understanding what you mean underneath.







"
So when you meditate and your mind stops what do you do, how do you know that you exists and what makes you restart?
Why don't you rejuvenate forever?"



you don't do something you experience yourself the real you that is pure awareness itself with nothing else stacked on top of it, thoughts ideas feelings emotions , would be stacking things on top of your awareness , when you remove all that you feel yourself what you actually are that way in your regular life you dont misunderstand and think you are your thoughts or the story your thoughts tell about you as a character.



"
how do you know that you exists and what makes you restart?
Why don't you rejuvenate forever?""


you know that you exist because the whole exercise is to experience the actual you that is real the emergent you the consciousness you have with zero storytelling from thoughts no feelings or emotions you have the present moment and it can only be described as " not needing anything else but what you have that instant" there is no sense of need or want or wish just pure comfort and "being"

"Why don't you rejuvenate forever?"":


what happens is if you stay in that state for too long say 5 hours , when you come out of it to regular state you are burned out feeling like you spent so much time no activity it take sa while to get going but say you only spend 1 or 2 hours meditating like that you come out firing on all cylinders your working at your highest possible level. even if your busy and so it for 15 mins say , it will still do an incredible amount for you.

"

 

I'd wager that around 65-70% of the active (and non active) members of this forum are politically liberal in nature. As most musicians are.

 

My take on this is live and let live. Whether you're a theist, agnostic or atheist.

 

"
I'd wager that around 65-70% of the active (and non active) members of this forum are politically liberal in nature. As most musicians are.
"


it is possible, I however see a flaw in the "2 parties" concept there are issues that are decent in both of them there are def flaws and most important there as aspects totally ignored

 

"My take on this is live and let live. Whether you're a theist, agnostic or atheist."


there is no such thing in reality i love the idea of it though, but in reality the people that make decisions in position of power and duty are highly influenced to say the least by religion and beliefs in general that directly impact our ways of life our freedom what choices we have and most importantly our restrictions.

 

I didn't say everyone conforms to my personal beliefs. Just that there are some of us who actually live by the mantra "live and let live."

 

>> people "SAY" every combination and arrangement that words can go in but the only
>> combinations that are not fiction, are the ones that match reality or the way things
>> really work and the only way to tell if it is a match is to test and probe reality to see
>> what the real answer is.


There are infinitely more things to know directly through your own experience than you have nanoseconds of life remaining within your dying body. There are infinitely more which you'll never be able to know even if you had more nanoseconds.
You are trying to simplify the reality through the mechanisms of lossy compression called generalizations.
While it may work for some things for others it is totally futile.
There is a fruit which you never tested and no generalization or explanation will help you understand its taste until you bite it.
NDE does happen and to know what kind of experience this is you'll have to ask, watch and learn from those who passed through it.
If you (rightfully) disregard their explanation (which is quite consistent among survivors) the only other way is to try it directly, it can be induced. If you do, maybe you would start a different topic.

Theoretically speaking if God exists he created you and your mind. Since nothing existed before God made it so whatever exists comes out of him and is in essence a part of him. He made you out of himself. But you only appear to exist as there is no scientific proof that your mind (self aware being) exists. Only you can be sure that you exist (partially), others, me included, only pretend that you are because you are making waves here.
In effect we are blind believers that you exists (not really different from believing in God) because it is easier to assume so than to theorize that words and whatever waves you are creating came out by themselves which would be infinitely more probable than that the whole planet of unique self aware beings each with their own bags of words and waves came out of random movement of atoms and molecules which science is trying to find out but is not able to do so.
You can daydream characters of your original movie. Those characters have the same chance proving or disproving your existence as you have proving or disproving that your creator exists or doesn't. Scientifically they will have to assume that you probably don't exist.

Science (cells, E=mc2, etc) is no more and no less magical word than the God. Yes bag of words expanded with science but if you look closely science did not discover airplanes nor computers. We made it so by applying the power of imagination over matter out of pure desire.
Just like music.

 

Last edited: Apr 17, 2017

I think they are more influenced by the amount of love (or lack of it) received while their minds were forming.
Freedom is one of the symptoms of love.
Nurtured children tend to grow in caring adults who naturally appreciate desires and expression of others.
And vice versa, those who did not receive enough of love tend to control, censor, manipulate and oppress.

Once damaged it doesn't matter if they believe this or that as whatever they'll chose to believe or not will be damaged by the lack of freedom they carry with them. Too late for education, I propose we change them for those who left a mark of a person who encouraged freedom and love around him or herself throughout his life.

 

I agree, most children are ;-)
Selfrestraint and discipline are words which are loosing practical meaning with newer generations.