TOPIC CLOSED.........Will there be a part 2 coming in the future?........................










I am willing to take on the positive position that there are no gods that exist ( the ones that have been purposed.)
any theist can make any argument that i will directly respond to clear and concise.

A human being can be a THEIST or a human being can be an ATHEIST there is no other option either you are a theist or not from there there are distinctions for atheists. you have soft atheism or agnostic atheism you have no current belief in any gods and that is it. then you have HARD ATHEISM which is there is no god, then you have Ignostic Igtheism (division of atheist) which is that god is not even a concept at all it is so poorly defined and you are lying if you say you believe in god. I urge you to vote in the top of the thread THEIST or ATHEIST even though we know those 2 words do not begin to address the subtitles involved in peoples positions on the matter.



Please refresh your browser page periodically regarding the thread underneath this comment thanks people!

 

Last edited: May 1, 2017

Atheism in the modern era is a word describing that a person is not a theist, lacks a belief in god or in other words ,does not think that what a theist thinks is true ( theism is a belief that a storytelling which includes a god character is true).

This day and age we rarely see an atheist adopting a burden of proof by saying " there are no gods" I however am willing to stand by that . Although atheism and theism both are positions regarding what a person believes, I am willing to extend my lack of belief into making a statement about reality itself ( Reality is that which is not fiction) .




I will begin my position by stating what I believe to be the most important information related to this topic, that is the distinction between fiction and reality or to be more precise fiction vs non-fiction. I want to be very clear there is a such thing as fiction. In this specific situation I am referring to fiction being any thought ,concept, idea, proposition or statement which cannot demonstrably be shown to be true in the context of reality. In fact fiction is the vast majority of thoughts, ideas, concepts, propositions, and statements and the tiny minority are ones that can be demonstrably shown to be true in reality,

Why is this important at all in any way?

Because there is a way human beings actually work regarding our thought process and our minds. our thoughts are made of words and symbols which are virtual not real , so for any meaning to be there, we have to be talking about those symbols representing something and reality is what the words are supposed to represent. next we human beings are stuck in a subjective experience of spending each moment inside of our mind, we are capable of misunderstanding and not accounting for all details of a situation which leads to fictional or false propositions ideas and thoughts statements. Reality is outside of us. In order for us to utter words strung together in a meaningful way those words have to accurately be describing that outside reality. in order for that to take place we have to have demonstrable evidence , meaning we have to test and probe reality to see what the answer is to a question then we can formulate a thought about how things actually work or what exists in reality.

This means when it comes to the topic of how can a thought, idea, concept or proposition EVER be true. It can only be true IF we have demonstrable evidence or data from reality itself that we form a proposition or thought based on in order to talk about how things actually work or what exists outside of our experience which is subjective.

based on this first point 1. Fiction vs Non-fiction (read above) we can move to our first point on a journey to uncover and eventually establish hard-atheism or "there is no god"

Point number 1 against theism:
-------------------------------------

Theism is literally when a human being accepts that some storytelling is true which happens to include god character. the theist is not making a point and never has that god is real, they are believing that a storytelling made of words and told by mouth or book is true.

But when we factor in the above information regarding Fiction vs Reality we can see that there is no such thing as a true proposition , thought, idea, concept UNLESS there is demonstrable evidence showing that it is not fiction, again this is a limitation due to how human beings exist in reality, how our minds really work, we use virtual symbols in thought and to form propositions and the only time it can be said for those symbols to have meaning when they are talking about reality itself. yes if a person id writing a movie script or fictional comic book they may have ideas thoughts propositions that they know are fiction for the work of fiction, however in the case of theism vs atheism we are evaluating the existence in reality of god .


Lets pull back the curtain on god are you with me?


Classical Theism
------------------
Whereas most theists agree that God is, at a minimum, all-knowing, all-powerful, and completely good,[1] some classical theists go further and conceive of God as completely transcendent (totally independent of all else), simple, and having such attributes as immutability, impassibility, and timelessness



we will use our first "tool" described above called fiction vs not fiction(read above) and evaluate these claims and qualities of god.

God is described as a mind which requires no body or brain . in order to be convinced this concept could possibly be non-fiction we have to have demonstrable evidence that mind which requires no body or brain is even means anything, the problem is when we look at the reality we know of to examine this proposition we find minds depend of brains AND how developed that brain is, we have no earthworms with phd's we have not rocks as chess champions ( and those HAVE bodies of a sort) to say a mind had no body at all would be like saying a movie exists with no dvd no dvd player no tv no laptop no hardware no software no electricity to run anything just a movie hovering in the air playing connected to nothing with no parts. this is like saying a "square circle" exists pure gibberish.

this is fatal blow to theism number 2. Human beings can only accept a proposition to be true in reality if there is demonstrable evidence, in this evaluation of a " mind which requires no body or brain" we literally have to divorce the meaning from the word mind altogether and yet still arrive at a concept that we have no ability to accept. this destroys our ability to accept gods souls and afterlives


that's a warmup but what about the quality of "all knowing" wells lets spend one second of our precious time and think up one question ......ready.........okay maybe 2 seconds account for the dots ready?.................

IF god was all knowing, then he would always know what he would choose and could never make a choice because it was pre-determined by his knowledge this means to be all knowing is to watch your life unfold like a movie playing that you already seen before you cannot choose differently than what you already know is going to happen so it is zero ability to make a choice ever ....for eternity in god's case whoops i guess that one second of thought some people just didn't take the time to do ..........huh?

fatal blow to theism number 3. we have shown it is impossible for us to accept that it is true that god is "all knowing" because in order to accept it would mean god has the same amount of free will as a rock....zero!!

What about " all powerful" ? well power>? what the hell is power? we use power to describe electricity mostly i cannot find any way to use power in a meaningful way ( this one is not a fatal blow towards theism only that power is not applicable in a way we can examine.)

"completely good"? okay now we are in la la land what is this a list of wishful thinking with no bearings on reality ? comon! we might as well say "god MUST have a 16 inch pecker as well. we are just pulling words out of a hat that bears no resemblance to anything that makes sense. good is a word hat is a description we use subjectively for that which we personally like. how you could ever attach "good" to something that exists is just lazy. is a computer programmer "completely good" just because he can code a video game and is the "god" of the characters and reality of the simulation?




Expanding on Reality vs Fiction or fantasy
--------------------------------------------------------

When I say "Reality" this word i am using as a description as " that which is NOT fiction or fantasy or false" or in other words " the way things actually work"
reality is unique and vastly different from fiction because reality is one thing, several branches each complex and the sum of their parts that connect to other branches. we can examine the human body its parts how it actually works and why and all those details are inside of that branch of "human body" yet near by there connects another branch called "the living cell" and all its parts how it actually works which connects to another branch called " chemistry" and all its parts and how things actually work and the laws of nature that explain the forces that act in order to " move" matter that way.
If we zoom "out" to see connecting branches instead of "in" so we start at "human being" and we zoom out we can see all new sets of branches , we can navigate reality a complex system of "how things actually work" in this way even though reality is one complex thing just as a "computer" can be navigated to its parts.
But what happens when we try to do this with fiction? what we find unique to fiction is that it exists as an island separated with no connecting branches no deeper levels just a superficial artificial storytelling where nothing need to justified no explanation of its parts why it is that the story is the way that it is and how it makes sense , fantasy or fiction is an island of imagination for which there is no justification for the storytelling and it all falls apart when compared to the vastness of reality and all its branches because of this we can evaluate each thought we have each proposition we make each sentence we speak and find out if it is fiction or reality at the heart of its content.






to be continued..........................

 

Last edited: Apr 17, 2017

Im just here for the comments........

 

Who cares what you believe or don't believe

 

"
Who cares what you believe or don't believe

"



Ahhh , I am glad you asked that.

Because a human beings actions and interactions in the world we all exist in, are based on their beliefs( what they are convinced of), assumptions and expectations formulated , as well as the underlining possible misunderstandings they have which their beliefs rest on.

 

please refresh i'm going to update the above post to keep that content together thanks people!

 

I may be unusual for a hard atheist, but i think this may be interesting for some of you so i will explain.
I take the position of Hard Atheism(God does not exist) against my own will. What i mean by this is that I want an afterlife to be true and souls to exist for human beings and possibly gods to exist depending on the definition, yet even though i desperately want reality to work in that way, Reality actually works the way it does which includes no gods no souls and no afterlives.
(my parents died tragically at no fault of their own at young ages and suffered and i want desperately to be with them again in afterlife)

 

How we perceive God in reality

 

Last edited: Apr 23, 2017

whoopi godberg... seems legit..

my fave from history.. well TV history.. is when Rerun (What's Happening!!) joined baba rumbaba... and started
worshipping a head of lettuce.. called.. RALPH

​

 

I go conform with you. Its impossible to believe, if you don't have the ability. As long as i remember, i wasn't able to believe the things they told me at school and our christian community. I asked many questions but everything the priest answered sounded improved and biased. When i was 12 or 13 years old, my doubts turnt into a strong disbelieve. It almost broke me, because i was all alone with my thoughts. I even followed some false prophets who exploited me and my disorientation.

But however, i am happy most people believe in god, because they need it to get grip in their lives. Downside is, i could never live with a guy who does believe in god. I'am kinda afraid of strong religious people.

 

Do you mind if I make a couple of questions about you and point out a couple of (what I consider) conceptual errors in your writting, almost completely outside of the discussion theme?

I like the post, and you are really well versed, that's why I'm interested in what is your age (a matter of know-to to have a comparisson point between you and me /which is the maximun extent I can do being only 23/ in the topic of possible amount of experiences and interactions... Take it as a banity fair interest), and what is your formation/career (this to first understand if the such gives you not only room, but also tools for this types of presentations /i.e. an engineer career will always set ground-foot on objectivity, while a career in letters, writing, etc, will lean towards subjectivity but will provide you with lexicon and coherence... You seem to be pretty well in both, is just to know how you have come to those)

 

We are going through a period in which many people are questioning everything that they have been told to be true. You could argue that science is also a belief system. Politics is also a belief system, culture, Darwinism, ideas given by ETs. Any set of rules or given 'facts' that provides answers to important questions becomes for people a belief system that they buy into and which they live their lives by. So, the traditional God belief has become less important as a belief system because newer beliefs seem to answer for them, the big questions in a more comprehensible way. I predict that the world will, at some point, be presented with new explanations about the nature of reality, creator via a prophet who will come with a group of ETs. But even when we are witness to religious miracles, natural disaters or alien invasions, we must remain suspicious that advanced technology can create it all to decieve us. All that I have said is the reason that I think the question of atheism or theism is an irrelevant question, or the question needs to be re-imagined.

 

"So, the traditional God belief has become less important as a belief "

Disagree.Look at what is happening in Turkey right now, a secular country transforming into a caliphate under Erdogan.
I dont have a problem with people believing into made up gods if that does not interfere with my life.....

 

Hi MMJ, you have ventured into too many different branches, like metaphysics, epistemology, philosophy, religion, psychology, medicine, language, etymology etc. Hence it is impossible to delve into anything deeper than just scratching the surface.
Demonstrable evidence doesn't cut it. Otherwise things like black holes, anti matter and many other quantum phenomena become mere fiction, which they are not. Also, you are using only classical physics (mind cannot exist without body/matter). Can matter exist in many places at once (a lesser degree of omnipresence)? Well, in quantum mechanics, it can.
Go doesn't need to be all good. Kindda like nature, nature is neither good nor bad.

I can go on, but to the most important points:

1. God, by definition encompasses everything. Language is only a tiny fraction of everything there is. Hence you cannot possible decipher God within the constraints of only language.

2. Very few people can sit still or meditate for an whole hour. Why is it that we, who are most fickle and cannot control our own thoughts, so easily dismiss God whereas, truly advanced spiritual people who can meditate for 24 hours or more, at one go, never question the existence of God?

Maybe we should revisit our opinions once we have the ability to meditate for 24 hours straight. What say?

 

"
Do you mind if I make a couple of questions about you and point out a couple of (what I consider) conceptual errors in your writting, almost completely outside of the discussion theme?

I like the post, and you are really well versed, that's why I'm interested in what is your age (a matter of know-to to have a comparisson point between you and me /which is the maximun extent I can do being only 23/ in the topic of possible amount of experiences and interactions... Take it as a banity fair interest), and what is your formation/career (this to first understand if the such gives you not only room, but also tools for this types of presentations /i.e. an engineer career will always set ground-foot on objectivity, while a career in letters, writing, etc, will lean towards subjectivity but will provide you with lexicon and coherence... You seem to be pretty well in both, is just to know how you have come to those)

"

Hello Twinborther,

My name is John I am going to be 37 in a couple months now. I am a Musician, Sound engineer/ producer )been doing that serious for over 20 years). Also i have been an artist since i was 7 years old . and thirdly i am a "hacker" beginning when the internet was white letters on a black screen in 1989 ,daily working with hardware and software everyday. Also back before any cell phones and before any internet i would read every book in any library i could get to studying each topic i was interested at the time of being young and as i got older expanding to create a full picture of reality as well as human progress.

 

"
Hi MMJ, you have ventured into too many different branches, like metaphysics, epistemology, philosophy, religion, psychology, medicine, language, etymology etc. Hence it is impossible to delve into anything deeper than just scratching the surface.
Demonstrable evidence doesn't cut it. Otherwise things like black holes, anti matter and many other quantum phenomena become mere fiction, which they are not. Also, you are using only classical physics (mind cannot exist without body/matter). Can matter exist in many places at once (a lesser degree of omnipresence)? Well, in quantum mechanics, it can.
Go doesn't need to be all good. Kindda like nature, nature is neither good nor bad.

I can go on, but to the most important points:

1. God, by definition encompasses everything. Language is only a tiny fraction of everything there is. Hence you cannot possible decipher God within the constraints of only language.

2. Very few people can sit still or meditate for an whole hour. Why is it that we, who are most fickle and cannot control our own thoughts, so easily dismiss God whereas, truly advanced spiritual people who can meditate for 24 hours or more, at one go, never question the existence of God?

Maybe we should revisit our opinions once we have the ability to meditate for 24 hours straight. What say?"





HI oska,

I find this extremely interesting "Hi MMJ, you have ventured into too many different branches, like metaphysics, epistemology, philosophy, religion, psychology, medicine, language, etymology etc. Hence it is impossible to delve into anything deeper than just scratching the surface."

those separate disciplines are separated out in our society for many reasons i have spent time to have full picture of each but when dealing with reality itself it is not broken into those fragments so you have to put that knowledge( of studying them all i mean) "back together" so to speak because reality is one thing , there is no line where one ends and another begins because these descriptive words say "language or psychology " are symbolic of a portion of reality but one still has to create the whole one picture of reality and to that end i have made the distinction between fiction and reality or fiction and non-fiction regarding any thought idea concept or proposition from the context of each moment in a human being experience. this is the act that takes place in reality for which all these disciplines come together in reality, whether metaphysics , or psychology or all the rest , the place where these things go from symbolic representation to real information is our starting point of being in a moment inside of our thought process .


"Demonstrable evidence doesn't cut it."

demonstrable evidence is not a ideal i am picking or a value i hold what i am trying to show and bring awareness of is that we human beings find ourselves in a unique situation reality has forced on us .

We find ourselves in a moment with consciousness. next we have an outside reality , we use a symbolic thought process for which we cannot use real thoughts instead we use virtual symbols to form thought including words and shapes and constructs. this is our starting point but now we have a thought appear inside of our consciousness. this thought is made from words using language which is virtual not real. now that we have a thought appear how can this thought ever be considered to be "about reality" or " the way things actually work" or "that which actually exists" and the answer is to go from virtual symbols to saying something about reality itself we have no choice but to test and probe reality to get data in order to say what "out there" or reality is like. there is a massive gaping chasm of a difference between saying " this is what i think about something" to " this is the way things actually work in reality" we are frozen in subjective experience such that we find ourselves ion a position for which the only situation when any one of our thoughts ,concepts, ideas, sentences or propositions could be said to categorically be talking about reality itself in such a way that is not fiction, is to use demonstrable evidence. This applies to ever human that has ever existed and will ever exist , down to each moment they ever find themselves in for each thought.


"Otherwise things like black holes, anti matter and many other quantum phenomena become mere fiction, which they are not. Also, you are using only classical physics (mind cannot exist without body/matter). Can matter exist in many places at once (a lesser degree of omnipresence)? Well, in quantum mechanics, it can."


all these things have demonstrable evidence. we can point to the center of Andromeda and measure the mass that exists and we find it is many millions of times heavier than the visible stars that are there . second the movement of these stars are so sparatic as being " moved" by the gravity of an object several million times the mass of our sun but only being the physical size of a tea cup. that is demonstrable evidence of super massive black hole from there we can take thousands of independent pieces of demonstrable evidence, independently measured by hundreds of scientists across the globe over a 15 year period.
what are quantum mechanics? it is the most demonstrably successful filed that exists! look at the screen your reading right now ! the keyboard you are typing on! the laptop in your bedroom! the tablet on your couch! these are called "electronics" which is harnessing the power of how quantum mechanics reality works in order to make inventions that are so accurate down to microns we can make the same model of tablet by the millions the same dvd player by the billions the same laptop or phone by the hundreds of millions and the end product behaves identical to the rest that is demonstrable evidence that quantum mechanics is a part of reality not fiction.

 

"
I can go on, but to the most important points:

1. God, by definition encompasses everything. Language is only a tiny fraction of everything there is. Hence you cannot possible decipher God within the constraints of only language.

2. Very few people can sit still or meditate for an whole hour. Why is it that we, who are most fickle and cannot control our own thoughts, so easily dismiss God whereas, truly advanced spiritual people who can meditate for 24 hours or more, at one go, never question the existence of God?

Maybe we should revisit our opinions once we have the ability to meditate for 24 hours straight. What say?"



lets examine your number 1.

i am happy to entertain any definition, but what i am interested in the most is what is real. and when it comes to the reality of human beings it is a fact we find ourselves in a position in each moment where we have a thought and in that thought that exists inside of subjective awareness we use symbols called words or shapes to construct an idea or proposition, but if the content of that proposition is saying something about reality itself ( the way things actually work) the objective place outside of our subjective experience, we are forced to have demonstrable evidence from reality in order to show that our proposition is not conjecture for which the symbols represent a state of affairs or the "way things actually are" for that proposition to be true we have no choice but to require demonstrable evidence through testing and probing reality itself, but however IF instead the content of that proposition was " i personally believe X " now we are not talking about objective reality but instead Our personal experience which may NOT require demonstrable evidence. But of course not much in tne way of progress could be made with a proposition like that.

 

"
I go conform with you. Its impossible to believe, if you don't have the ability. As long as i remember, i wasn't able to believe the things they told me at school and our christian community. I asked many questions but everything the priest answered sounded improved and biased. When i was 12 or 13 years old, my doubts turnt into a strong disbelieve. It almost broke me, because i was all alone with my thoughts. I even followed some false prophets who exploited me and my disorientation.

But however, i am happy most people believe in god, because they need it to get grip in their lives. Downside is, i could never live with a guy who does believe in god. I'am kinda afraid of strong religious people."


Elisea,

as i read your comment a feeling arises for the first time that i can ever remember, and that is a feeling like when it comes to the content of my comment you responded to i feel like someone understands me , and that another person is like me in that way it means the world to me and i greatly appreciate that , because i haven't met another person or know of any that understood me like that , i hope we can talk some more if you have the interest.