Can someone explain how commercial tracks sounds so clean?
i know of midi to frequency charts, but even as i use these, i don't come near this commercial clean stuff.
How do y'all handle this? is there any set of rules which are widely respected? do you let the filter/eq-cuts overlap?

PLEASE help me, i got the will and ability to really learn, but i don't have the sources to learn from and couldn't find anything suitable for this subject...

thaanks guys

 

@ Amsterdam Pirate,

As it seems that the fact of learning and to read books/documents don't discourage you, you can make some searches within 'Google' for some books and/or documents written by :

* Bob Katz
* Bruce Swedien
* Andy Johns
* Bob Ludwig
* John 'Mutt' Lange
* Roger Nichols
* Thomas Dolby
* Phil Spector

among others !

Even if these 'legendary and glorious' Audio/Sound Engineers aren't necessarily directly involved in the kind of 'modern' music style(s) that you make, you can be sure of the fact that reading their words, comments and experiences will serve you as a 'Gold Mine' for all your 'studio processes'. All these "console/mix desks' legends" have contributed to so many legendary recordings that you can consider them as 'The Masters among the Masters', really... *yes*

I tell you to make some searches within 'Google' because the majority of them have either published books, or excellent articles, and that you'll certainly find some traces of them within 'Google'. Unfortunately, I don't have right now in my mind the exact names of some of their books, but if you type their names within the 'Google' Search Engine, you'll end with several pages related to them with invaluable info, tips and tricks... *yes*

 

Start with a good mixing tutorial man, there's a bunch of them in "the other side".
Especially "Mixing Creating Space"... you can check out a "5 minutes to a better mix" on google
you'll find nice tips about shaping your mix

 

you really know a lot about music production in general, can i ask you how you gathered this knowledge, are you an audio prof? this is not ment sarcastic, but dead serious, you always got a good formulated and educated response on my topics... will look up all those names

 

I didn't know that guys like Phil Spector or Andy Johns wrote books about recording !!!

I go on Google right now !

 

@ MARJU GRLYO,

Maybe these two 'LEGENDS' haven't wrote books by themselves and/or under their own names, but as I wrote in my previous comment : "the majority of them have either published books, or excellent articles,... ". I wrote the 'majority' because I've cited several names, this doesn't necessarily mean all of them...

Here are 2 interesting articles/interviews with Andy Johns (you'll certainly find more with an 'in-depth' search within 'Google') :

Andy Johns in 'Guitar International'

Andy Johns short sample of an interview included in the Excellent book written by Bobby Owsinski



@ Amsterdam Pirate,

By the way, if you can find or buy the following book, it will certainly become a 'Gold Mine' for you and your 'audio knowledge' with all the advices, interviews, tips & tricks included *yes* :


'The Mixing Engineers Handbook' by Bobby Owsinski

 

You can start with the use of high pass and/or low pass filters on every track. Any frequency other than the frequency range of the particular instrument/voice is potential noise.

 

Firstly, there are fundamentals to consider when dealing with such a task:

1. At the source, remember that these commercial tracks are working with good-sounding source material, so ensure that you're using high-quality sounds, recording with high-quality condenser microphones, recording vocals in at least a relatively deadened environment (with treatment), and mixing in a treated room.

2. Even when you're at the stage of composing music, consider *how* you're composing; consider what you're adding to the composition. Overlapping frequencies (that may comprise various instruments within a composition) can -- and assuredly will -- introduce some problems for a record, especially in the subsequent mixing process; and some of these problems can prove to be detrimental, or even fatal, to the goal of achieving that commercial cleanliness you're seeking. More specifically, for example, if you add a guitar part and then add an identical, layered synth part, consider making it in a different octave. If you must have octave-sharing, nearly-identical musical parts within the composition (i.e. multiple guitar parts), you need to make room for these parts. All of them cannot sit comfortably in the same space, so you almost inevitably need to pan them away from each other -- and this will promulgate a "wide" sound that's probably desired anyway. For clarity, another example is how people tend to "layer" their music with multiple pads, synths, etc; just remember, if you're going to layer, make sure you're layering, instead of simply cancelling out frequencies and creating veritable mush. You do this by "layering" sounds with things that sound different -- not things that sound exactly the same. If you have, for instance, a synthesizer that has a bass-centric frequency range, layering this instrument properly would be to find other synths (or whatever instruments) that are NOT bass-centric (or at least not precisely in that same bass frequency range), UNLESS you're layering the bass, and this is where EQ separation comes into utter significance, which brings us to number 3:

3. While mixing, make sure that you establish frequency separation, as the original poster alluded to in his query. Utilizing hi-pass filters (and sometimes even low-pass filters) on equalizers should become your best friend, and you can use them on every single instrument. This, as you may have heard/read, will clean up your mixes; just ensure that you're filtering adequately, carefully, and conservatively (for the most part). Proper, competent filtering requires that you can hear the pivotal portion of the entire frequency spectrum; if, for example, you cannot hear downwards of 80hz on your monitoring system, your filtering capacities will be compromised, so make sure you can hear at least 48hz on up (and make sure your monitors have the flattest response possible). Most people are under the impression that those super-low frequencies are only pertinent to drums and basses, but this is not the case. If your monitoring system cannot disseminate those low frequencies, you won't be able to gauge/assess the true "thickness" and "depth" of many instruments and sounds, which means you will filter improperly -- by either making it too thin because you don't know how much of the sound's essence you're cutting, or by feeling an erroneous need to boost. Lastly, let your ears guide the hi-pass filtering (which, by the way, is also called "low cut" or "cutting the lows"). Let your ears determine the fundamental frequency range of a given instrument/sound and begin cutting until the sound starts to change intrinsically; when it starts to change, you're going too far (unless this is what you want).

4. The last component of 'commercial cleanliness' is simply ensuring that the source sounds have not been digitally processed superfluously, and that the sounds have not undergone conversions (i.e. from .mp3 to .wav, etc). Some folks swear by the utilization of higher sample rates and bit depth. Personally, I've used many various sample rates and such, and I can see a subtle difference in using higher sample rates, such as 96khz, 32-bit sessions, but, undoubtedly, using at least 24-bit/44.1 sessions can allow professional results if the abovementioned steps are taken. And, as a mixing note, you should take a closer look at the records you consider "clean." Notice the amount of apparent reverb. Too much reverb can easily be one of the detrimental factors hindering a clean-sounding mix, so always look out for that. And, lastly, don't forget how literally all of these "clean" commercial records have much dirt and distortion added to them.


---- I hope this helps. If you have anymore questions, email me: [email protected]

 

Yeah. "clean my arse"... The last mixes that were really clean IMO are dated somewhere mid-90s... "Clean" - what do you mean? It even rhymes. All I hear in the last decade is digital noise and artefacts, and then more digital noise and artefacts [aliasing], loooots of it. If you want to hear something clean, try Depeche Mode "Black Celebration" or "Music For The Masses"... that's clean. K-14! ;) Studio standard of that time without even knowing it that K-14 will become somewhat of a standard for pop music, and it's not, but it should be IMHO. K-14 sounds like the best compromise between digital harshness and digital quality.

 

There are many ways to make a good mastered file... Simply take you preferred asrtist and hear/see an entire song... compare yours against the commercial and you'll know what to do next... ENJOY

 

you have to start with good quality stuff to start with a good Mic a good Digital Converter/InterFace and good Studio Monitors and good Teaching check out pensado's place great stuff


http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pensadosplace.tv%2F&h=uAQFEA8vr

 

maybe i didn't formulated it in the right way, and i still don't know the right term for it but elucidation explained pretty much what i needed to know and what i'll experiment with. and what's a K-14? i'm not familiar with this machine gun series... whaaat?! it's not a gun? well please explain to me/us then what it is then. after all you can't aassume we all know what this K-14 is... right? but you sure know how to build up the tension, can't wait till you tell us, really, it's 2 o clock in the morning and i can't sleep because i'm thinking of that damn K-14 all night, you make it sound so cool, like it's the answer to all my questions, like it's THE thing to have...you even make me want to have this thing so bad without knowing what it is, please omfg i can't stand it anymore enlighten us, give us the details of this mysterious K-14 please!

iahhhh man... i even went to the coffeeshop and asked for 1 gram of K-14, smoking on some right now.. thanks for all the useful info bro!

greetins from amsterdam...

 

cleanness? I wish I could
I find hard certain aspects of Equing as separation and space (reverbs)
Speaking for me, certainly beginners homemade mixes might sound more as a creative genre (including more than noticeable artifacts) than a standard of quality.
A good trainning anyways!

 

use good sounds to start with

high pass everything


in a busy mix - eq things differently when stuff plays together.
then put the eq back to normal when the sound is playing on its own (like in the breakdown)
use two track for this ---LEAD normal ---LEAD HPF etc

compress - voxengo elephant is good
waves - CLA vocal on vocal
Drums - use nerve
drums - multi band transient = iZotope Alloy



i think that covers it

 

No links like this: File Blocked for Violation.
I'm against copyright but respect the rules!!
Post Deleted

 

For me one of the most informative mixing series have being Dave Pensado's 'Into The Lair', can find it at YouTube at 'This Week In' -channel. Starting at the #1 Dave goes thru his favorite plug-ins and lil by lil things go deeper into the sonic of sound.

To put it all together [almost] shortly..
1. compose the music with the little bit of premixing of the volumes and panning of each track as needed.

2. when composing is done, equalize and add possible effects for each track while listening solo and with other tracks for each changes. Specially with eq, listen carefully for all the changes you make to see how things get blend. As general equing rule: to add something, you need to take away something and vise versa. One must thing to do is to add low and high cut for tracks that don't benefit higher or lower frequencies. Less there will be overlapping frequencies, clearer the mix will be. Specially at downstairs.

3. do a final mix, that is mixdown, by adding tools that shape the whole song to master buss which is where all tracks are routed. Usually nowadays there should be somekinda compression and saturation most importantly. Now listen at the volumes of each track, change where needed. Remember also panning. Also check that none of the tracks are clipping, also check master bus for that. Believe me, you don't want that kinda digital distortion.

4. and lastly.. Master.. Master.. the mixdown. For example Steven Slates FX-G does good to music with some stereo widening tool. And lastly, convert sample rate and change bit depth if needed for medium to be released.

Learn to use particular tools good rather using different tools each time. For example, firstly learn to use some channel strip, it is essential. Those can include all needed tools for initial shaping of the track, such as eq, comp, gate, peak limiter. Good ones are Waves SSL 4000 and Wave Arts TrackPlug for example. To add depth to some particular track, reverb is the tool to do that. Sorta, is sound in front of behind. Reverb is to determine that. Also, you might use mono'ing for some tracks to clear the stereo field. Also use widening for some other that benefit it at the most. And some things are better sit in between.. Also don't forget little game of ping pong, that is add delay where appropriate. And for dance/trance music, for that pumping sound.. use sidechaining. Can also be good to other electronic styles to get those kicks going.

Lastly.. trial by error. Don't be afraid to mingle with things to see how it might affect the outcome. Remember, there is no rule but the one you created.

Yeah, lots things missing in here, I know. But I said it's going to be short. ;)

 

LOL, K-14 maschine gun. Well, K-14 is an audio loudness standard that is most close to the recodings they made in the 90s, 80s and beyond when they monitored loudness through good old VU-Meter. So even though there are lots of K-standard metering plugins, just about any VU-Meter plugin would do if one wants to be as loud as they were at the time, and preserve most of the peaks and the clarity of sound. Real clarity. ;) K-14 standard essentially says that your mastered tune should be -14dBFS RMS on average, with occasional peaks to -10dBFS RMS. That gives it at least 10dB of headroom for peaks on the full digital scale [FS].

Here: http://www.masterpinguin.de/en/pgammwiki/doku.php?id=wiki:ksystem

"As the K-System provides sufficient headroom, you won't have to worry much about digital clipping. It enables you to judge the loudness by your ears, and, to a certain degree, ignore the meter – concentrating solely on the music."

That doesn't mean you cannot use limiters to achieve the sound you want, but every mastering engineer would really like to get a K-14 track, as it's easier to squash the bejesus out of such material and make it "K-3". ;)

Cheers!

 

Elucidation nailed it

Commercial music is based on the less is more theory, there isn't anything too much really, only the parts that works.

Work with clean samples that compliment each other and the mix, don't processed them heavily just to make something alive, if they work with no processing at all you have something, otherwise polishing a turd is bad idea for super clean less is more mix.

Perfect sound engineering is the key, make something that instantly fit your mix and don't need layering, use effects wisely and little, like a send effects and remember that too much processing is bad idea again, too much reverb and delay is suicide.That one lead must work in that frequency range, timbre must be perfect and choosing the best synth for the job is the answer, but tweaking,tweaking, tweaking, sweet spots everywhere and little on every side make good sound perfect.

Use quality stuff for everything if you want that $$$$ sound, don't believe people who say that you can make everything with native stuff or with everything, if you want that expensive sound, thats the only way...

Put every sound in it's own place, cut the things that overlap and work with everything in context, but I must say again: Everything in the mix must work, every part must be clean, crisp and perfect and in his own space...

When I started I had the rule(still have) that everything must be almost the same(or work perfectly), kick that sounds like the bass, snare that have almost the same sound as the kick, hats that really drive you away and work with lead,leads that works with groove and everything else and every sound must be epic and perfect for that track, so I spent all my time learning one thing and when it's perfect, I go to another...still learning, still not satisfied, but my vision of super clean music with the sounds that actually works like a charm with each other is coming to life.

All that producers spent years developing that techniques and sounds, everything is just like they want it, and less is more is for the people who make every little thing perfect, just perfect amount of effects, perfect synthesis and parts that works music and production wise, it's hard, but that's the real deal and answer to your question....it's hard work and balance between the sounds.