I decided not to use any preset and just synthesize them for being original.

Discussion in 'Our Music' started by foster911, Jan 14, 2017.

  1. Kloud

    Kloud Guest

    See there is something we agree on :yes: :shalom:

    Like the prodigy and in all honesty it wouldn't concern me in the slightest how this track was ever constructed as it 4 me at least real cool :grooves:



    Poor Orchestra lol :dunno:
    I reckon u gotta see it from their perspective and possibly they love the exposure and like any sonic exploration that goes on in their own domains regarding the instruments they love.
    Get Keith, The London Philharmonic and Tim Exile on one stage I reckon.
    Would be interesting I guess :bow::yes:
     
  2. Aliens

    Aliens Guest

    Right, perspective got and context set. You've no 20 minute track of your own to set as an example.:wink:
     
  3. Avenel

    Avenel Kapellmeister

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    i do but it's on my own name and surname and i care about my privacy.
     
  4. Avenel

    Avenel Kapellmeister

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    on youtube search for "prodigy remake ableton" there are 6-7 videos, very very interesting ... i wonder how the guy could find the all the original samples, most of them were from obscure stuff 70s and 80s, not famous hits.



    Tim Exile : he's certainly one of the most famous electronic performers nowadays but what can i say ? i've never been a fan of this kind of "shows".
    i wouldnt even know where to start but its not my field and never will.
     
  5. foster911

    foster911 Guest

    It was chillstep and this one is Robostep my humble friend::yes:
     
  6. Aliens

    Aliens Guest

    Yes of course you do, but that neither changes the perspective or the context of the point in hand, nor weakens the impact of the implied sub text that underscores it.

    Internet law 11.3(c) clearly states
    [​IMG]

    :lmao:
     
  7. Pinkman

    Pinkman Audiosexual

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    @Kloud You forgot Liam, brother. That man is The Prodigy.
    I've always had a soft spot for Tim Exile. His music sometimes get's a little too busy (which is saying something considering my narcotic-like level of unmedicated ADHD) but his Reaktor meddling is something I adore and is always interesting to behold. Plus he's in Mostly Robot with my man Jeremy Ellis.

    @Avenel I haven't heard Göttsching in a while. Awesome. No loops. All hands. How about some Ellis? I've seen him play some carefully constructed kits but this set was all loops. All hands.



    @tulamide You are absolutely right. I've never even heard of Solveig before but IMHO. Utter shite.
     
  8. Kloud

    Kloud Guest

    For sure Pinkman :yes:
    Both Tim Exile and Jeremy Ellis real cool Imo also.
    Even if someone doesn't like their stuff on a musical level it's pretty hard imo not to be impressed with what they are doing hands on level or the technical aspects.
    Some of the reaktor stuff he pulls of is mind boggling.
    Watching Jeremy also on Maschine is like how do you ever learn that stuff lol :dunno:
    I try the same and it comes out like total utter shite lol.
    Is like that not the way it's supposed to happen :sad:
    I not got those skills for sure.
    Not sure about this Solveig dude lol either but from what u all say I reckon I give that one a wide berth and all that.
    Could be missing out tho which worries me a little :rofl:
    Yeah, thanks for the info Avenel :yes:
    Will have a look for that as would be interesting.
    I still maintain that on a personal level it wouldn't bother me if it was like a one armed monkey hitting random notes on a bontempi as it's the end product that counts.
    Journey there is non important .:yes:
    U see u keep saying any 13 year old with FL could do that.
    I don't subscribe to that because if it were that easy, put simply, more would be doing just that I reckon.
    Whatever u think of Fosters efforts he putting ideas up and getting totally ridiculed and hugely despondent through the whole process :)
    Seriously though, all credit to him as he putting out bits and taking on board ideas etc. That's what it's all about and good on him 4 doing just that .
    Takes guts and shows character and all that :).
    Speaking of masterpieces am looking forward to this epic loop symphony u are going 2 come up with.
    Could be your big chance :)
    Might start like a new genre named Avenelstep or something equally impressive with a huge underground following.
    Might not also but I for one got faith in you to deliver the goods :mates::yes:
     
  9. G String

    G String Rock Star

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    Usually? Hmmm. But you could do anything to the 'loops' such that nobody could ever tell they started as a loop. They can evolve.....an lfo will do it. And what's the difference between a tracked guitar solo and a 'loop' of one? Either way, you could granularise it, mash it up to hell, whatever. It isn't the same as playing a guitar, but nor is using a compressor or an EQ.

    To my mind all the distinctions have disappeared, as a consequence of plastic sound.
     
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  10. tulamide

    tulamide Audiosexual

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    I never talked about live performances. I just mentioned "in realtime". And I'm talking about tools, not FX. And what you can do with those tools is something you could only dream about in the 80s, no matter the money you had.I'm still sure, your definition of "Loops" is a thought from the past, that has nothing to do with todays reality.
     
  11. Avenel

    Avenel Kapellmeister

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    yes, what we have know was a total dream in the past.
    and indeed the big limitation for anyone was the cost of the hardware gear, today instead with a 300$ laptop you can do things that were unthinkable just a few years ago, actually even owning a laptop was not common as they were priced twice as a dekstop.

    said that ... i don't see anything radically new in what it's done nowadays, the big difference is the FXs we have now.
    apps like Reaktor are a dream come true for instance, there's nothing even remotely on par with Reaktor and never will.

    i'm not surprised Tim Exile is using Reaktor among other things, for what he does it's the best choice.
    but what is he doing exactly ? well ... he's doing a show but he's not doing too much music in my opinion.
    he's more on the circus side of music actually, most people will be impressed, some others like me will say "great ! but so what ?", to each his own !

    i'm afraid you guys are totally downplaying the 80s and 90s tech, everything we have now comes from the 80s and 90s, dont forget.
    and there's also another factor on this .. in the past FX were expensive and limited, so musicians had to make songs that sounded good even with their awful cheap EQ/delay/reverbs ... either that or nobody would publish it ... nowadays instead there's a gazillion songs that sound good but just because of the tons of FX masking the lack of melody.
    so it's a big downgrade if you ask me.

    for anything else : i think there's no point in defending loops, samples, tweaks, and arpeggiators because any decent musician can and should do all this by hand, of course they can save time but they should not be used as a substitute for talent or ideas ... most of modern sucks because it's now too much easy for anyone to make a song using all these shortcuts .. lots of these songs get published and some even sell very well .. and then you have guys like deadmouse making millions while great musicians are starving .. this is the sad reality and i dont see anything good about it .. samplers in particular are the main factor that killed good music : why wasting time learning to play music when you can steal samples ? and now, why wasting money hiring a drummer or a bassist or even a singer when you can use a good plugin and vocal samples ? and the next to be replaced will be you guys .. there's already many automated audio apps that make interesting things with auto-midi creation, they're not very impressive now but give it some time and ...
     
  12. Avenel

    Avenel Kapellmeister

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    yes, instead of loops you can have fun with Granular Synthesis ... it's based on looped samples but with a ton of options and it's the smartest way to use samples in my opinion, it gives you endless possibilities, and yes in that case it's impossible to know you're using only samples.

    moreover, using Granular guitars will create things impossible to do with a real guitar.
    see the guitar packs for Steinberg Padshop, very interesting stuff ! i want to make a whole EP just with Granular Guitars for Padshop.
     
  13. Avenel

    Avenel Kapellmeister

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    look, talking about arpeggios here's the only deadmous song i half like ... melody and sound are good, drums are absolutely anonymous but they give some rhythm :



    now the question is, if he can do this stuff why there are no other similar tracks in his last LP ?
    being malicious, i could wonder if somebody else is credited as co-author for this song, maybe he's even using a ghost producer ? but ...
     
  14. SyNtH.

    SyNtH. Platinum Record

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    Where does "you made this element" in a track start and stop? I think thats the barrier people are trying to get across. If you programmed an arp, is that different to painting in the arp statically in the piano roll? Do you have to code your own DAW and audio engine to have your own sound? Do you have to care and tend to the forests before you chop them down into drum sticks? The most important point is does the consumer care? Where do you stop and say "it is out of my influence" to go further than what it in my realm of time/monetary/knowledgable possibilities just to get the sound you want? Just because you made your own sound, how does anyone know what went into it without any documentation? How do they know its not a loop you just got from a pack?

    Another point is you say that people are using drum machines sounds straight out of the box with no modification, that may be true to some extent, but i think it depends heavily on the producer, i would never generalize, but how do you know they wern't generated and tweaked to enhance specific frequencies? Sometimes its inherently obvious, but other times it isnt so. For example i've spend days upon days trying to get just one kick to sound right, masking 3-4 synthetic layers and 4-5 acoustic layers. There is alot of experimentation in that alone. A prime example would be Noisia, check their Future Music video on Youtube, they describe just that process. They basically make their own loops, but they they are constructed in a way in which they could layer their own sounds, in REX loops, for example, kicks only, tops "loops" only, Ambience mics splashes only. Is that a limitation on their part? I would say obviously not.

    In contrast, whats to stop someone from composing a track with loops from lots of different sources, mixing it into their own track with eq, fx etc. Does that then become their own sound? Its then a case of consistency in sound design for future tracks they make. I do agree that loops can become a barrier to some producers, but as many other people have already mentioned, its what you do with the material you have, that allows it to become something unique. In that case loops can become a useful tool to making music. To me i would just treat a loop as a sample, meaning its open to any type of degradation or sound design that any other sample is. If you are just a loop copy and paster and expecting your songs to become a big hit, then i agree with you about the constraints of loops, because the elements of the song most likely arent mixed/ dont have a good progression, dont specialize in that genres specific qualities, and are just a mash (literally) of samples. In that case the issue is always with the driver, not the car.
     
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  15. Avenel

    Avenel Kapellmeister

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    hmm .. i don't know .. i've never been a fan of this kind of sampler-shows .. sure he's very good at what he's doing but it's totally not my cup of tea.
    it's certainly interesting to see him live instead of on video but .. i don't know .. maybe the next step for him should be to use a D-Drum with his samples and see what comes out of it, a D-Drum with FX and all would allow him a lot more creativity than these midi controllers.

    not to sound too luddist again but you could do exactly the same with an ancient Akai S900 and i can tell you many people were doing that already in the 80s with funk and hiphop sampled grooves so again nothing really new as far as i'm concerned .. if you pair him with an 80s DJ doing scratches on vinyl and a rapper singing some shit you get something like the early Run DMC or Tone Loc or LL Cool J ...nothing wrong with that but still not impressive .. actually it wasnt that much impressive in the 80s as it gets boring quickly .. try listening to 1 hour of loops, scratches, and bad vocals ...

    so i'm the wrong guy to ask about Tim Exile & friends, my opinion is purely technical.
     
  16. Avenel

    Avenel Kapellmeister

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    so, when i started making music my early songs were limited by my hardware, i could either sample drums and make my own drumkits (sampled in 8-bit, go figure) or use the awful sounds of my roland expander, then i moved to AKAI and a yamaha keyboard, etc.

    what i learned from that was to squeeze my hardware to the bone and yes i had to use samples for every sound i couldnt find in my expander o keyboard.
    but that was a necessity, not a shortcut.

    this is key factor, of course what matters is the final result and nobody will ask you how you did it, but out of principle if you plan to become a decent musician you must be able to do everything by hand .. arpeggios, programming and sampling your own drumkits, making your own synth sounds and drum synths, programming your own FX presets from scratch.
    if you don't, sorry but you'll be always limited a lot in what you're doing and no DAW or external help will help ... and so you will sample and loop somebody else's work but still you'll be stuck in the loop so to say .. you might feel great making a song out of 3-4 ripped samples but you know it's NOT your stuff ! you know you're all mouth and no trousers .. and when a band ask you to play this or that you know you don't even know where to start because until then you played with samples and can't play a simple arpeggio or whatever.
    so that's the point and it's all up to you, if you think arpeggios or drum loops are a skill or art let me tell you it's the bare minimum actually and any decent musician will laugh in your face if you tell him you sample arpeggios or drums .. you will say "but in EDM everybody does that" .. yeah and more laughes in your face .. EDM is the living joke of music .. actually many dont even consider it music and rightly so, but that's another story and i dont want to sound too elitist.

    anyway, as far as i'm concerned, there's not one single reason to EVER use loops apart for vocals, and this just because i can't sing myself.
    if you guys love loops so much you're welcome to waste time (yes, waste !) using loops and studying everything about loops, one day you will realize it takes 30 seconds to make the same stuff by hand and you'll wonder what the fuck were you doing.

    because that's the point, WTF are you doing investing all that energy in cutting samples ? will it make your song better ? sure ??
    in 2017 we've access to pretty much ANY possible sound ever made, there's no excuse for using loops today ... loops are great if you wanna steal and dont tell me it's just a starting point or inspiration .. stealing is stealing ... if you're not able to do what you have in mind sorry but invest some more time in learning composition rather than sample half a song by somebody else because that somebody else maybe spent 5-10 years learning piano and wasted several nights to come out with that nice arpeggio you're sampling today.

    what else can i say ? yes as you say there are many tricks to make a bunch of samples "YOUR" sound but you know it's not your sound, it's just your MIX, different thing.
    so maybe you're a good mixer or remixer ? ok, but you're not a good composer, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you must be clear in your long-term music plan.
    you expect to be called a composer ? no way, as long as your songs are a bunch of samples with layering and FX.

    listen to SIGUR ROS and tell me .. can you make a track like them ? because they're real composers, no loops, no samples, no tricks, no bullshit.
    dont listen to deadmouse, listen to real music because that's the proper standard if you're serious about music.
    if you're not, EDM is the place to go, loops and sweeps and there you go, plenty of labels willing to publish any possible shit and even realistic opportunities to make money and get famous.

     
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  17. foster911

    foster911 Guest

    Sorry but:
    :rofl:
    Please read that book. Please....
    It has a section with this title: "From Acoustic to Perceived Repetition". It's exactly for you.
     
  18. SyNtH.

    SyNtH. Platinum Record

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    Defo heading into elitest territory, my post was to meant to address a method of not being so narrow minded about the way we consume music. And by the way tell the chart shitters what they think about "principle" when they make money and "fame" out of the ass... Have you even pondered into the way people consume music in clubs and modern day consumption of music? Your view seems heavily jaded... How do you expect to make a name for yourself in todays market? And why cant you sing? Surely people could say that they cant drum and they use loops, imo thats an excuse and its contradictory to your point....

    I myself personally dont use loops as all, and i recontextualise everything i sample, and not only through mixing, there are plently of subtractive and additive methods of changing/morphing sounds. I would love to see who else you look up to in the musical world, and if there is anyone in the electronic realm (Post 90's) you actually enjoy. I also love acoustic instruments too and can play the drums so dont get me on the whole biased EDM tip, you have no idea about what music i listen to. My advice would be to put up or shut up imo. Post up your tracks as others have mentioned and we can have a listen to all of the uniquities your music has to offer. If someone can make something from a loop as a basis great for them! Its completely free realm and up to them, if you say the design choice of using loops as a basis sucks or is bad, you are simply going against what freedom of music allows... I dont shit on anyones journey to a finished song, its the end result that i judge.

    I'll use another example. there's a guy called Bonobo who used to make a lot of sample based music 15 years ago, he has now fused that with a live band in his latest album and has had a lot of sucess. All of those sessions in his DAW with his loops and samples got him to where he is now, can you not see the progression in music from that perspective either? I guess he is shit too right? zzzz

    What about the birth of hip-hop, that was all break loops too back then, i guess that is shit too right?....

    Quit with the elitist "Real music" bullshit too.
     
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  19. Kloud

    Kloud Guest

    Liked the Arp stuff Avenel but lol come on. U going a bit far now maybe :dunno:
    We still waitin 4 the loop symphony & now u better than Jeremy Ellis except u can do it all on an Akai S900???
    U be tellin us that you much more fluent when you play it for real on authentic matador series bongos next and how u set up Tim Exile's live reaktor rig on a like Atari-ST next.
    What next :)
    Sure 80's was real important and I love loads of stuff from that genre but :dunno:
     
  20. foster911

    foster911 Guest

    This is the most rough and ready track I can make and posted it some times ago by the most uncomplicated sounds you can imagine. As you see it's full of repetition. I'm waiting someone can manufacture it by hand:


    The name of this forum is Audiosex not Musicsex. Music is the most unadorned and spare form of sounds using. We're not just musician but sound lovers.

    And when I was creating this thread I meant to produce sounds by our selves to be much more complicated because most presets are so simple and are for people to use them straightforwardly in their simple sounded tracks. I love complication in everything like you.

    I admit that most producers even big shots' musics suck but be sure finding shelter under the shadows of instrumentalism is not the cure. Pure instrumentalism and composition by per-specified instruments' sounds can not give you complication. It's just playing with discrete pitches (OK timbre) not whole frequency spectrum.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2017
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