For those wondering wheres the link to the reference, its gone and I had enough.

Andrew: Moderated

 

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2016

Its a nice thought martel but a vinyl rip, no matter how well you do it just preserves the limitations of vinyl. What's the point of trying to match the scratichiness of vinyl to your own recordings for todays market?? What's the point of ripping at 24bit and 96k? All you're doing is getting a better representation of the noise on the vinyl. Even if you had the Pink Floyd CD (made from the original masters and not in itself a vinyl rip) then there would be no point in upsampling it from 44k 16bit. In any case there is a wealth of high resolution lossless CD rips of all this stuff on the internet to download for free. Failing that, second hand copies of nearly any CD you want can be had on Amazon cheap as chips and you can easily make make excellent, lossless rips yourself with the free program EAC. So appreciate your gesture but, as far as using the vinyl rips for reference are concerned, then there is no point in limping before the lame. All the best for the coming year

 

Last edited: Dec 23, 2016

Don't know what is 96k for. I know it is useful for recording, production, synthesis, mixing, mastering to avoid aliasing, and for precise of highs equalization. High bit depth is to avoid quantization errors, digital noise while doing a lot of processing, gaining, compression, so it safer and much less shit appears after that.
But for listening don't know. Vinyl noise cuts your music below -80db. So you want your vinyl noise to be digitized very crystal clear? But noise is not so cool, but in quality...It's like dogs shit is very high quality picture, so enjoying shit or its quality. Yeah vinyl is cool, but to require maximum from this. The true quality is how music was recorded, mixed, mastered, pressed, played from vinyl, so big format will not save it.
Do you hear more than 22050 hz? If yes, does your speakers play them? Do you play it as 96khz in your player, or this is played thru auto src as 44k?
16 bit dithered and 44100 or even 48000 is much more than enough. Even in blindtest you will not hear mp3 320 and 24/96 and true analog-only sound.
These formats are only for audiophiles, because they allegedly hear it, that is why hires mastering for, because they usually know nothing about digital sound, they usually think it is for wider frequency range, but it is for avoiding shitty digital sound while a lot of processing is done, not for listening. A lot of tru engineers say this, that there is no point. Maximum 1% less digital it will sound, but what about blind test?
A lot of people and pro engineers on gearslutz can't say is it digitally mastered or thru analog. And usual people want vinyl superdigitized. They think they are much more clever than engineers.

 

16bit should be enough for vinyl, 90dB are hardly achievable there. With proper dithering, there can't be mathematically any difference, only that in 24bit it takes more space.
As for it being good reference material, that's difficult to say - vinyl masters are usually hard panned to each channel to compensate for limited stereo width, such processing isn't really suitable for say headphone listening.

 

For starters, the above example is incomparable in technical terms. Yes, the CD release is clipped, but that's not indicative of possible limitations of 16bit depth. It was just poorly mastered - limited and clipped to hell. And yes, most recent vinyl releases aren't given that harsh treatment.

Technically, vinyl isn't superior format to digital (PCM), but some people prefer the experience of handling large discs and all the noises, crackles and distortions that comes with it (me too, to an extend). However objectively, it's not comparable, even with inherent limitations of PCM storage (pre-ringing).

Using extended sample rate above 48kHz might prove to be useful, as in some cases, frequency range of a vinyl records extends above 30kHz, which provide extra headroom when speed of said recording needs to be adjusted.
However 24bit here is only a waste of space. Even brand new, 180gr audiophile pressing and eliptical, magneto-dynamic stylus can produce at best 75dB of DR and 50dB of stereo separation. Both of those values are superseded by 16/44.1 PCM, when properly dithered (TPDF).

 

Last edited: Dec 23, 2016

The discrepancy you hear or sense between audio of original vinyl releases and newer CD releases is probably the result of their respective mastering. 24/96 rips (or 24/48 rips, even) of vinyl recordings do technically present more dynamic and frequency range (with 24mbps and 48kHz being bitrate for dynamic range and sampling rate for frequency range) than 16/44.1 CDs do. It's a matter of the information encoded to the recording. If that information is mastered (EQd, compressed, and such) differently, then it's not a matter of which playback format is "better." Something mastered for vinyl playack in 1975 will sound different than the same recording mastered for CD release in 1985, or, for that matter, in 2015. The aesthetic standards for mastering in 1975 were remarkably different from those today, and I'm not even taking into account brickwalling or the "loudness war" or other technical-aesthetic impositions. Vinyl is, in fact, considered by some to be "archival" quality – by archivists – for sound recordings due to its faithfulness of preserving and presenting the original recording. It's merely a matter of what recording is committed to the medium, and how that's done.

 

But what dynamic range and details under -70dB noise you want to save by 24 bit, if there is 16bit dithered which can do it? Your dynamic range and details are already killed by vinyl noise. Try dither. Dithering noise is not noticeable in vinyl noise, noise shaping is much less noticeable, for higher samplerates noiseshaping differs, it goes not from high frequency shift, but from very high frequency and ultrasound, so much much less noticeable, try izotope for this. You will not hear it, dithering in music and under vinyl noise is like to appreciate the quality of whispering of human staying 2 meters from you at the metal hardcore loud live concert stadium.
You can capture vinyl as 24 bit (usually ADCs provides 19-22 bit, rest bits are noise) and 96khz. Then use stop quality src to 44, like rx, final cd, dbpoweramp, sox and then you have whole frequency range up to 22k with sharp ideal filter and without any intermodulation distortion and aliasing (only pre and post ringing of linearphase will be at 22050 hz area, which is super unnoticeable). Then dither such as ozone mbit+, etc. And save as 44/16. Don't forget about details and dynamic range, it was the question of recording, mixing, mastering, pressing. Vinyl playing for digital capturing is another question, because it depends on vinyl playing gear, wires, quality of vinyl, state of vinyl, Adc etc. Capturing yes, should be maximum quality, but you reconvert it down with saving your vinyl noise details with dithering and saving frequency range where higher 22k is useless for your ears and not so important for music. There is nothing to lose here.

 

And don't forget about what happens before vinyl pressing. Some mastering and mixing engineers don't even know about that 24 bit dithering should be applied for 24 bit files before digital-to-analog mastering processing. Because they must know their DAWs are 32 bit float or higher and just import to 24 bit is truncation. Truncation is much worse than dithering noise. So if they don't do it, your vinyl will have sound pressed from truncated 24 bit. The question of your details is here, first of all.

 

My opinion is not about that 24 96 kHz for listening end, but about that is waste of space. I like the sound of old vinyl, analog vintage gear, noises etc. But this hi resolution end is useless. For music on vinyl is yes. Technically is just waste of space.

 

Are you sure we're the amateurs here? This is fundamental knowledge you seem to be lacking or purposefully ignoring.
Throwing insults on top of that won't make it any more believable.

I'd advice doing some research into how PCM noise floor actually works. Things like how dithering, noise shaping, Nyquist theorem (sample rate), minimum and linear phase work before going in here and marking everyone who seem to have meaningful insights as amateurs.

So far you have demonstrated only subjective bias towards the matter, without taking numbers or facts into consideration.

 

Last edited: Dec 23, 2016

Only an 'amateur' instructor would get angry when conflicting opinions are presented and leave.

 

I just don't see the point what are you referring to? To details killed by/deeped in vinyl noise but saved in 24 bit? Or to frequencies which are heard bats, dolphins and dogs?
It is like digitised cassette tape in 32 bit, 384 KHz. What here I will find? Better quality will not be there. Why haven't you done 32 bit 192 384 kHz for vinyl if you speak about reference? Or you think 24 96 is standard? There is no standard. I ve never heard about standards in audio. Nobody still mentioned that and approved..
Src which I named doesn't reduce the quality, and everything after that will be there, without distortions and digital shit.
Dither noise is nothing in comparison with louder vinyl noise.
I don't think the reference will become worse. It will be just compact sized with "quality more than you can hear".
If there was formats like 18 bit and for example 56 kHz it will be even much more than enough for vinyl storing. Because the main 2 digital minuses are aliasing and quantization noise or truncation. Vinyl is already limited by noise. So nothing to save there.
Thanks for vinyl references BTW, I will download to hear your tastes and how it was digitized.

 

The only angry and condescending posts are made by the guy pointing fingers? Who here is perched on 'bigly-tremendous sound engineer mountain' looking down on all of us 'amateurs'?

If you truly have a valid point try making it without the name calling. I couldn't make it thru any of it

 

Since you're not an amateur can we enjoy your work?

 

First of all, if you know anything about recording music, you know damn right well that the CD track isn't "clipping". It's probably topping out at -0.3 dB. It may be a lot louder than it was intended to be, but it's not clipping, not unless it was mastered by the single worst working audio engineer in history. No one would allow a commercial CD master to "clip" or sound distorted in commercial gear.

I understand what you're saying about the vinyl being a less-processed version of the original master and therefore a better mix to go by than trying to match a heavily-processed modern digital master, but the vinyl is also a bad representation, as certain frequencies are chopped off, the remaining bass is processed to mono, there's a higher noise floor, etc. A much better bet is to go track down HD audio on sites that specialize in selling HD downloads and streaming. They're also from the same masters, except they're not being filtered through the limitations of vinyl, they're 96 kHz/24-bit digital recordings straight from the master tapes/files. Often, they're boutique recordings, so they're not anywhere nearly as processed as the same recording on iTunes or on the radio, or even on CD.

 

I am an amateur and what I see are different points of view and different opinions. Some are just expressing their beliefs and some are slinging sh1t to defend theirs.

 

martel80,
I ask again.
Please enlighten us with your 'pro' work.

My vote for your self proclaimed 'great gift' is useless.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2016

Here's an extract on limitations of vinyl cutting straight from professionals:

Source: http://www.vinylrec.de/?page_id=25

Just to point out that master recording meant for vinyl cut must meet specific criteria defined by the vinyl medium.
In the end, vinyl recording might sound very similar to the one found in digital form, but the master used to cut the mother matrix will differ from the recording you'd normally put on a CD/SACD/DVD-Audio/MQA/whatever.
PCM has its own set of issues, same as DSD, but none of them are as "intrusive" as those vinyl recording possess.

That's not to say vinyl or shellac is bad. Most certainly not, I prefer to have my tracks cut in analogue. And I enjoy the experience of taking vinyl out of its sleeve and playing it. But objectively, with all things considered, it's technically inferior to any of the lossless digital formats. I can hold onto that belief and still enjoy great tunes cut in this medium.

 

And thanks for the downloads I think I have about 20 mix versions of "Dark side ..." and the music/mix/production/ well everything, still gets in to my bone everytime I hear that masterpiece

Cheers