Making a (vocal) sample fit

Discussion in 'Working with Sound' started by Backtired, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. Backtired

    Backtired Audiosexual

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    (I put "vocal" in parenthesis because this happens sometimes not only with vocals)

    Hi,
    my question might be a little stupid, and maybe it is, I don't know, otherwise I won't be asking..

    After some time spent looking for samples that would fit my track, I managed to find some good ones, and some that I like but don't know how to use, etc. (For anybody curious, they are some indian, native american chants or vocals, nothing special). Now, I have about ten samples that could work, but after thinking and trying to use them I noticed that the problem weren't the samples, but me.

    Notice: I'm talking mainly about dance music, not whole acapellas, but just short vocal loops or longer lines. I'm making the example of native chants but this applies to everything

    Every single time I use a vocal or a ripped sample (unless it's from a pack made specifically for what I want to use), it never fits the track. Examples from today:
    a) a very, very short loop (1 bar I think) that repeats; this was easy, fit to tempo, boom, stretch and cut a little bit and I'm done; this one worked, but I was not happy because it was very short and I could clearly understand how to make it fit;
    b) another short sample, but not looping perfectly; no idea how to use this kind of stuff; I tried "to be creative" reversing some parts to fill the empty space, or leaving as it was, I don't know;
    c) a longer line which I can't even begin to manipulate because it either become horrendous or it sucks because it doesn't work

    Basically what I want to do is, sometimes a vocal ripped sample doesn't have a specific tempo; or if it does, I can't understand where the stress on the words is. Ideally, one would line up the accent to the beats if I'm correct, right? Can't figure how to do it. Sometimes after stretching the sample it starts to lose its power, or you can start to hear the stretch (or the pitch if shifting).

    I'm not sure, maybe I'm just looking for tips on vocal samples. I have plenty, that's not the problem, I'd love to use them a bit better that's all

     
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  3. dastony2

    dastony2 Member

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    i have had the same issue and it came down to whether or not my beat was on the exact same bpm as the OG. Some songs just aren't exactly (for example) 90bmp, but could be 90.252 bpm. Most of the time we'd make a beat at 90 because it fits a portion, but as more time passes, the greater the difference and error incurs. So it takes a lot of chopping and spacing at the right parts in the vocals to make it fit and still sound natural. Like Jay Dee said, air works. On top of all of that, the vocalist may ride the beat at variable speeds throughout the at 90.252 bpm song, very difficult maintain. Possible, but can be lots of work. I don't encourage time stretching and pitch correction tho.
     
  4. Baxter

    Baxter Audiosexual

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    Sometimes you have to tap-tempo of the vocals. Sometimes the singer is ad-lib'ing freely without music/click/tempo, and you have to warp/flex/stretch and even chop/cut it up to make it fit. It takes practice but after a while you start to get the hang of it and often "feel" the singers phrasing and rhythm instictively.

    I generally don't stretch too much, to make the vocal fit the track. I rather make the track fit the vocal (tempo, transposion/key, feel, swing, syncopations, etc).
     
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  5. Soul1975

    Soul1975 Platinum Record

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    They're just phrases so do something to make it fit the track or chop them up small and then TS.
    And when i say,make it fit the track sometimes you can just strip out some parts of the track,whether it's instruments or drums or try to even go silent.
    I do it all the time,but it might be different for me,different genre.
     
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  6. Satai

    Satai Rock Star

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    Best Answer
    Oh man, speaking my language there for sure. It's a bit of a curse. On the one hand you can't be arsed working with recording your own vocalists (they're assholes and I'm an asshole, it just doesn't work out) but on the other, samples rarely fit and you sit there wondering how long you'll be massaging it, and should you just give up already?

    Don't give up too easily, here come the homegrown remedies I use:

    - Listen to the sample and try to ignore the vocal message for the moment, focus purely on what its structure is rhythmically and then on what its structure is melodically. Sometimes this leads to "aha!", and you change one beat a little, or melodyne one note and bam, now it fits perfect. If this doesn't work or you're too lazy for this (like me), go to the next one.

    - Pitch incongruity can be successfully masked by putting chorus-type effects on the sample. It obscures the human pitch tracking and you get away with a lot more than if it was dry. Another of my favorite tactics against the pitch thing is resampling the sample, playing it pitches other than what it's "supposed" to be played at, until I find one that sounds like it almost kinda fits. From there you finetune it using the cents feature in your sampler. Just a tip, I used to scoff at this technique too, thinking it will ruin everything and be too lofi to be useable. Not so, often it lets you fit a sample in that just didn't wanna fit no matter what you did to it before.

    - Try pitching the sample with a realtime tool like Ircam TS, while the relevant part of your track's playing in the background. With this one, you have the option of preserving the timing exactly if you want it to stay as it is, and finetune the actual sample... think of it as shifting the sample's root pitch AND at the same time sliding it back and forth away from A-440hz tuning, it's subtle but you can find some amazingly good-sounding fits by doing this and listening to the interaction of track vs sample.

    - Tonality/scale/key as a subset of pitch incongruity that you can fix by paying attention to what intervals are in the sample, then melodyning it to fit better with your own scale/key/currently playing chord. To make it less daunting for yourself if you're not fresh from the Conservatory exams, think of all the white notes on the keyboard, that peculiar layout they have. All the out of key (black) notes are mostly 1 semitone away from an in-key note, sometimes 2 semitones in a couple of places. What this tells you is that no matter what actual key it's in, you don't especially care, since you'll be mostly massaging the detected notes up and down 1 semitone in Melodyne and listening for improved fit...

    - EQing and dynamic EQ/or multiband compressing certain freq ranges can sometimes let you cut out a chunk of the sample that clashes, like a whole area of pitches, you just kill it dead with target scooping or judicious boosting and then fill in the gaps you made in with other instruments in the track instead. Now it sits better.

    - Rhythmic incongruity also responds to this resampling tactic sometimes (when resampling changes the sample's tempo and you accidentally find a happy fit, maybe cutting away some of the sample and just worrying about hitting that (1) of the bar, never mind that what happens after is kinda out of time - it sounds funky and cool in a lot of ways as long as you nail the (1) ), plus you can use timestretch markers and play with that, getting the rhythm to sit well with what you have already. Another oldschool rhythmic technique is to break the sample down into phrases or syllables (something meaningful, not just a useless beatslice), and then retrig it in parts using a programmed quantized rhythm of your own. This approach makes it rhythmically sit perfectly, though it's time consuming. Sugarbytes Egoist is a good tool for the job, but any sampler will do.

    - Third type of incongruity that happens is the "recording" type. I.e. it was done with a certain mic, certain pre, certain compressor etc, and you're using mic types and tools that are very different so the thing clashes, even though it's rhytmically and pitchwise fitting OK for your track. In this case you can put the sample into Izotope RX, and use the handy EQ matching feature in there. You only need 15-30% of that usually and it starts sitting a lot better, pretty subtle. You can either match the sample to what you have or vice versa. Other options include Voxengo CurveEQ, Zynaptic Unfilter (probably the better choice if you have the time to get into it).

    - Fourth type of clashing is semantic, the meaning or vibe or mood of the damn thing is clashing with what you have, if you ask me this is only really fixable with extreme processing so that the sample doesn't sound anything like what you started with...

    It's a sample, IMHO you should give yourself license to be brutal with it. It's not going to come by tomorrow and bitch your ear off about what you did to her "perfect take" and you took the spotlight away from her in the mix so that's obviously a crime against humanity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
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  7. subGENRE

    subGENRE Audiosexual

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    Nice post!
    When I started out I only knew to chop the samples into phrases that were close and trigger them with midi.
    Now that I know my way around a little, Im guilty of doing all of all the methods you outlined. Never thought to try that eq matching trick though, I always did it by ear. That is a great tip!
    Melodyne and Revoice are indispensable tools when it comes to editing tuning and timing.
     
  8. Backtired

    Backtired Audiosexual

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    Thanks a lot everybody, special thanks to Satai's huge di..scussion :bleh:
    Very nice are the clashing types you listed, very well thought.
    For me, it's almost always the rhytmic part, because the others are easily solvable (change whole song key, for example)

    Thank you very much, I shall go ahead and keep working on it :yes:
     
  9. Seedz

    Seedz Rock Star

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    Plus 1 for Melodyne...load the sample into it and then you can make it do whatever you need.
     
  10. The Teknomage

    The Teknomage Rock Star

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    I always choose my vocal clips first, and then I make my track to them. personal preference of course. Like to know what my vocals are saying first.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
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