Got side tracked after realizing O Deus ASIO Link Pro allowed for the same sort of setup (minus MIDI) and started testing latency with the different combinations. Will post a full write-up in the coming days (weeks..?) for the different ways I've been able to make it ≈work. Plogue Bidule / ASIO Link Pro /Voicemeeter Banana / Energy XT Rewire and JACK Audio (with Virtual MIDI when and if required). Not sure if this helps but I was able to resolve the MIDI feedback issue by making sure that MIDI Thru is disabled for both SOUNDS and GROUPS depending on how you're routing your MIDI channels. Not sure what DAW you use but in Live configuring a MIDI track like so records Maschine MIDI into Live clips and allows Live's MIDI/Audio plugins to be used to affect the data.
@thethirdperson This is a basic Maschine - Live 9 Bidule setup. This setup will route all audio back into Maschine. This was the fundamental starting point for the setup I have now that includes Bitwig and Reason and is awesome for generative creation when I'm in that mood. I will post another how-to on using these programs without ReWire which is not as tempo-steady but allows for more audio routing/summing flexibility. This version ReWires Ableton Live as a slave to Maschine in order to avoid the tempo-drift issue you get when running both as standalone programs and using a Virtual MIDI cable to send MIDI clock info. ReWiring keeps the tempo rock-steady. Maschine and Live can both be run full screen. Will also allow you bypass the 4 External Audio-In limit inherent in Maschine when in standalone. The setup above gives you 20 audio inputs, 16-IN from Bidule plus the 4 standard from Maschine. (Simply add another Bidule in another GROUP SOUND in Maschine and ReWire in another DAW/whatever and you have even more INPUTS. I will post another how-to on using REAPER, ReWired and unReWired with ReaRoute for even more flexibility) Open Maschine standalone > File > Send MIDI Clock Load a PlogueBiduleVSTi in first SOUND slot (_16 for 8 in/8 out, _32 for 16 in/16out). It is imperative to load the VSTi as opposed to the VST as the VST will not offer us the necessary routing options. I removed the existing mixer in the above setup but it can be useful for sub/mixes, drum racks etc. Right-click > ReWire Devices > Ableton Live [Don't make any connections yet] Launch Ableton Live and it should begin 'Running as ReWire Slave'. Right-click on the Ableton Live bidule > Sync to > Bidule Plugin_ Pressing PLAY button or adjusting tempo on Maschine hardware should now work synchronized with Live. Connect Ableton Live bidule's Mix L/ Mix R and Buses to Bidule Plugin_ Sample Input Channels 1-32. (Tools > ReWire Devices Config > Ableton Live > Audio Outputs - to configure number of ReWire channels available in Live bidule) In Maschine go to CHANNEL options for Sound 2 > Input > Audio > Source - A1:S1-2 In Maschine go to CHANNEL options for Sound 3 > Input > Audio > Source - A1:S1-3 ... In Maschine go to CHANNEL options for Sound 16 > Input > Audio > Source - A1:S1-16 In Ableton create a TRACK (MIDI or Audio) and set the Audio To: ReWire Out and the appropriate Bus. All of Live's tools can be used EXCEPT for Max4Live devices and the Exernal Instrument device. Use BlueCat's Remote or Nyrv Agent bidules mapped to Live devices to send MIDIcc info from Maschine. I'll let you configure MIDI as you please just keep in mind that whatever MIDI Out device you use needs to be disabled in Maschine's Audio and MIDI Settings... and the MIDI IN device Track and Remote needs to enabled in Live's Preferences. Project templates for your convenience: Maschine.mxprj Live.als Bidule.bidule Hope this is useful. Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
This is awesome! Thanks so much for posting this, I will be sure to give this a go for inspiration when I try to sort out a proper workflow template for myself, thanks again you're the best
About to give this a go =) What versions of each are you running? I haven't switched to the 1.4.6 update yet it was acting funny. Also can you explain a little more about what to do with NYRV Agent or Blue Cat's remote? Does it open up MIDI assignment capabilites within Maschine that are stuck to the controller?
@thethirdperson I'm using Maschine 2.4 \ Bidule 0.9750 \ Live 9.6.1_Windows 10 x64 Either of these methods will let you map Ableton Live instrument/rack/mixer controls to pages of parameters on the Maschine hardware. Anything in MIDI map mode in Ableton is available as a plugin parameter in the Maschine hardware. Load a Bidule for Remote and go to MIDI Devices > Output. Select the MIDI out for your hardware device or a virtual MIDI out port and connect it to Remote's MIDI output port 1. In the main Bidule GUI select Parameters. Under Source, expand Bidule Plugin_ highlight Parameter 1 then under Target expand Blue Cat's Remote Control and highlight C1. Click link. PARAM001 on Maschine Hardware should now control C1 in Remote. Go to MIDI Settings and configure the what CC#/channel you want C1 to respond to. Enter MIDI map mode in Live and map parameters. I use virtual MIDI ports and so in my Maschine AUDIO and MIDI Settings the virtual port I want to use has to be turned off. In Live I turn Track and Remote on for the virtual MIDI port I'm using. This method limits you to 32 parameters to map in Live with each instance of Remote_64 though you can link one source to multiple targets to create Ableton Live type Macros for Maschine knobs. I have used Agent to get around this limit but... The following works even better and uses less resources. This method requires only Maschine, Live and Bidule. Four ManualCC bidules mapped to Live stock reverb and delay sends A-B and renamed before grouping. Setup the the exact same way as before except instead of using Remote to send MIDI CCs we create ManualCC bidules by left clicking an empty space in main Bidule GUI > Groups > ManualCC. Double-click ManualCC bidule and set the CCNum to whatever CC# you want to use. Rename it to the parameter in Live it will control. In the main Bidule GUI select Parameters. Under Source, expand Bidule Plugin_ highlight Parameter 1 then under Target expand ManualCC_ expand Variable and highlight Value. Link these. Moving PARAM001 in Maschine should control ManualCC Value slider. Create as many ManualCCs as you need and map different Source_Bidule Plugin_Parameters to the Target_ManualCC_Variable_Values. Again, you can map multiple Targets to one Source, effectively creating a macro. [Map these to actual live macros, set different ranges and invert others and shit starts to get meta] Enter MIDI Map mode in Live and map PARAM# in Maschine. Setup Macros for your most used like normal. And all in full screen. You can map all your Live instruments and tools with ManualCCs and Group them; right-click > Group >Group selected object(s), name it accordingly then right-click > Group > Save selected group so you can simply load templates with each session. Right-clicking on a grouped bidule and going to Group> Properties and/or Parameters will give you access to the bidules contained inside. You can also do this with some other single bidules to set different functions/variables.
I mainly use ableton, but i also own a maschine studio and use it here and there for fun. Havent come across a way that i can combine both to my liking so i use the separately. What exactly is the purpose of doing this? what do you personally get off of it? How does it improve from just opening a vst version of maschine on ur daw. Im really curious about this. If you can elaborate i would greatly appreciate it.
@tidus1990 The short answer is it allows Live to be run as a VST with Maschine being the master. Full transport operation and tempo adjustments. Plus the function buttons scan through your timeline. Browsing through Maschine when it's run as a VST lags. This bypasses that problem because it's running standalone. You are able to control Ableton's parameters and assign macros for them in Maschine software directly from the Maschine hardware without putting the controller in MIDI-mode. It allows for more Live MIDI and Audio devices directly from the Maschine controller which normally, by design, has 4 external audio inputs. This method allows you 16 stereo or 32 mono inputs. Personally: I go through phases where I like experimenting with generative methods of music creation and this is a decent way of syncing external gear (virtual and physical) to the Maschine and avoiding tempo-drift. Most of the time I work it separately or hosted as a VST but this becomes a different way of doing things especially when you realize you can throw Reason and Bitwig into the mix. I guess it allows for one big modular DAW. And gives Maschine full ReWire support. It's not perfect though. There are still draw backs. I have another setup that uses JACK and there's no ReWiring but this also has it's disadvantages as without certain pieces of hardware to sync them to externally you get tempo-drift. Amazingly enough, using just an NI Audio 6 interface gets it done drifting maybe .03-17 ms when playback starts but locks in after about 5 secs. Last edited: Jul 4, 2016
So i tried using your templates, im on a mac btw. Im stuck at the part where you wrote "Right-click > ReWire Devices > Ableton Live" for some reason the vsti version if bidule does not give me the option to choose rewire devices or plug ins what so ever. Only the standalone gives me that option.
If you don't see the option for ReWire devices you must have some type of ReWire client open already. Maybe you already have Ableton running? At this point only Maschine should be open (with Bidule loaded as plugin). Open Maschine. Load Bidule VSTi in the first sound slot of Group A. Right-click in the Bidule GUI. I don't use OS X but on Windows many audio clients like JACK (maybe soundflower for you..?) give ReWire clients problems. One way around this is to turn that particular programs engine off. Load the ReWire host. Then load the ReWire slave then turn the program's engine back on. You have to restart your host and slave if you do power cycle any outside audio engine.
"Right-click > ReWire Devices > Ableton Live" this option is only available in the standalone version of bidule for some reason. I dont think i have any rewire clients open as far as im concerned.
Damn. I found this over on that 'other' site. Dude had the same problem. https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=259&t=450748 "Hmm, That's pretty weird. I am on a Mac so maybe it's different then. I get all the right Rewire devices showing up when using Bidule standalone, but in the VST there's not even a menu entry for Rewire devices like there usually is in the standalone program. Think i'll have to ask over at Plogue what the deal is... Thanks for your help anyway. Got some information from Bidule devs about ReWire in the VST version when running on OS X. Useful to anybody who is interested in running this same setup. Apparently Live crashes on start-up if Bidule VST allows ReWire functionality when it is scanned by Live, so they disabled it on OS X to stop the issue. The AU version apparently still supports ReWire, but that's no use for Bidule anyway. They mentioned the potential to add a hidden option to switch it back on for the VST, so hoping they sort that out for us Mac folks. If I find anything about that hidden option they're talking about I'll let you know.
You could bypass the ReWire altogether and use Virtual MIDI ports to sync Live and Maschine. Then use JACK Audio or Soundflower to route your audio between the two. I wonder how OS X handles the tempo drifting. Apple were the ones to develop Core Audio so you may have a solid sync. Try loading the Bidule VST instead of the VSTi. I'm reaching here. I don't know OSX
@Pinkman these have been so extremely helpful to me! I'm finally starting to see the different ways that MIDI instruments can be implemented in things without expressively using rewire. Is it possible to link vst/vsti instances of Bidule to when you are also using Bidule as a host, like in VEP? Do you also have a Push controller for Live? It sort of sounded like you did. If so how do you implement both Maschine and Push together so that they play well together. Regardless, I think I have a rough idea of what my perfect workflow template is going to look like. Maschine loaded into Ableton as a plugin, so I can use the pads for live drumming along with it's kits and internal fx modules routed so that it records directly into Ableton. Ableton Push doing what it usually does but more or less using it specifically for step sequencing and for being able to browse my sample library when creating drum kits, possibly with a couple VSTis thrown in there and creating clips. Then all of the MIDI being routed into Studio One since I like it's linear workflow, ease of resampling, freezing and effects stuff. It's gonna take me a little while to get all the stuff sorted out of course and I won't be able to really implement the workflow till I am somewhere with a bigger desk and can fit both controllers next to eachother. However I'm starting to feel fairly certain I will be able to do exactly that once I get all the kinks figured out =)
The biggest hurdle to being able to do just that is the fact that the Ableton Push is useless if Ableton is being used as a rewire slave since Ableton doesn't allow you to use MIDI instruments when it is and that Studio One can serve as a client but doesn't support slaving.I actually did try the bitwig route+push4bitwig but there are some real kinks in there that caused bitwig to continuously crash. I have the Akai Advance 49 and whenever I opened the VIP software in Bitwig it would crash since it was trying send all the parameters also in the Push controller and even though the Push4Bitwig design opens up a lot of possibilies with the Push that aren't available in Ableton it still wasn't specifically made for it and won't cooperate.
Still though I might give Bitwig another shot I'm sure there's a way to keep it so that it only focuses on one thing.
I don't have a Push. I do want one though. ReWire does eliminate MIDI out in Ableton but you can still use the devices by connecting a MIDI out for your device in Bidule. I get what you're saying about the ReWiring. The only reason I use it is for the steady tempo sync which drifts unless I sync to actual hardware or set sync offset which fluctuates. I posted this earlier for basically the same type of setup but without the use of ReWire and actual audio input to Ableton/Studio One: https://audiosex.pro/threads/jack-audio-on-widows-help.24995/#post-201477. If you load an External Instrument device in Live you can sync standalone Bidule host with the VST client. External Instrument is not available when ReWired.
@tidus1990 I haven't found any way of getting around that problem you were having with Bidule on OSX but you can try this if you like as @thethirdperson it does not require ReWire. These instructions are for PC but should work the same on a Mac. The only thing different is the Ctrlr directory path and you can use Soundflower instead of JACK. You will need Ctrlr. It's free. This part is for Mac: You will have to enable at least one Virtual MIDI port in your IAC Driver Properties. Make sure the Virtual MIDI port you created is turned off in Maschine's MIDI output in Audio and MIDI Settings... With Windows use rtpMIDI. I created a Ctrlr panel that has 128 parameters to assign to Ableton: http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/KEZG591j/file.html Load the Ctrlr-VST in a Sound slot in Maschine. In Ctrlr-VST go to File > Open Panel and open the attached .panel file in from the zippy link. On Maschine click Pages then the Learn button and move CC-1 thru CC-8 in the Ctrlr GUI. Click Page 2 then Learn and repeat the process. Once you are done you should have 16 pages on the Maschine controller for CC1 - CC128. SAVE THIS AS A PRESET BEFORE ROUTING YOUR MIDI SO WE CAN LOAD MULTIPLE INSTANCES AND HAVE IT TRANSMIT ON DIFFERENT CHANNELS AND NOT HAVE TO LEARN PAGES OF CONTROLS EVERY SINGLE TIME. JUST PUT EACH INSTANCE ON A DIFFERENT CHANNEL. MIDI routing is surprisingly easy: In Ctrlr's menu bar go to MIDI > Output > Device and select the Virtual Port you created earlier. Choose a specific channel if you want. Open Ableton and in MIDI options enable the INPUT TRACK and REMOTE for the same virtual port. In this case,I used Internal MIDI 06. And that's it. MIDI map Ableton parameters to your controller. I'm using the JACK server to route audio from standalone Maschine into Ableton and Ableton can send 8 channels back into Maschine for resampling. You can create more by adding the control to the panel and setting distinct VST Index and Midi Control Numbers in Panel properties. You can go higher than 128. *When you install Ctrlr the maximum number of controls is limited to 64. Go to C:\Program Files (x86)\Ctrlr\Doc and copy the Ctrlr.overrides file to C:\Program Files (x86)\Ctrlr and VST install location. Open the file and edit 64 to however many controls you need. Mine looks like this: <ctrlrOverrides ctrlrMaxExportedVstParameters="1024" ctrlrShutdownDelay="256" ctrlrUseEditorWrapper="0" ctrlrLuaDisabled="0" ctrlrLogToFile="0" /> Rename them to match both the .exe and .dll you are using. In program files Ctrlr.overrides is renamed to Ctrlr-x64.overrides and in VST location is renamed to Ctrlr-x64.dll HOW IS THIS USEFUL? I map individual parameters to my MPK and Axiom, group the devices and create macros which I then assign to my Maschine. From here you can create standard Maschine macros for each device in a Sound slot for ease of access and then create Group macros offering even more accesibilty. You can switch the device in view using the pads on Maschine controller. I use this with Touchable's Live browser to load samples, plugins, instruments and Audio/MIDI devices from the iPad so I don't ever have to touch my mouse and actually have complete access to every single one of Live's MIDI and Key controls and device parameters. I'll shut up now and go do something with it. Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
@tidus1990 There is. Once there's a VSTi/VST loaded in a sound slot, click Pages under Automation. Then you have a Learn button.
Very strange that that learn button only shows up n automation, luckily in ur preset 64 are already mapped. So i was able to download jackosx and soundflower but im not sure whats the correct way of routing maschine and ableton
