I've been working on a reggae track for a few days now and reached a point where I need lyrics to complete it. I even got as far as singing the melodies (using random words) for the different parts of the song. I started it with a chord progression then laid out a basic groove and worked it from there...I called a songwriter I know and asked if he could help me finish the song and figured since I've given him sessions in my studio for a very very good price he'd do it...When he got to my place he said he'd help me with the song but I'd have to scrap everything and start over, apparently according to him trying to "crow bar" lyrics into a song isn't the proper way...We argued for a bit because I felt that was a very closed minded approach to creating, and then he left without helping....He said the pros always start with lyrics then melody then the rhythm section...Personally I think it's a load of CRAPOLA...So I figured I'd ask you what your workflow is like? Is he right? What do you start with?

 

Last edited: Mar 22, 2016

It's extremely arrogant for your friend to pretend to speak for every other songwriter on the planet. It seems, from what you said, he needs to write in such a rigid order every time. I say a pro songwriter should be able to start with any piece of inspiration and make a finished product out of it.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me what starts the song ball rolling. A lyric, a melody, a drum groove, a bass line, a guitar chord, a patch on a synthesizer, something someone said once. Besides, we've all heard stories from our favorite artists about songs that started with a guitar riff first. Our various hip-hop hits, whose lyrics, we all know weren't written until they walked in the studio and heard the beat for the first time. 2Pac for example.

But your friend's point of view is silly in general anyway. Think about a chef who can only create a multi-course meal by going first course, second, main course, then dessert. No chef has ever created a menu in such a rigid manner. and neither do any bands, or songwriters, or composers create in such a limited manner.

Basically, no one would throw away music just because it didn't start with lyrics first. That would be a waste of product.

 

Guess it depends on your talent. There's 100 ways to make a song and apparently your friend's thinking is stuck in a structured box that he's comfortable with. I've written songs like you do where I write all the parts and can here the melodies including harmony parts and sing them using random words like you (my wife has caught me doing this & thought I was fucking nuts).

But then I seem to struggle writing the lyrics to fit the song, & apparently you are also stuck using this method. Personally, it seems easier for me to fit lyrics to music mainly because it's more natural for me to hear the music with related parts in my head. I've always attributed it to me having doubts about my abilities as a lyricist. I can't speak for how other bands, songwriters, or composers tackle this issue, but I do know many of the celebrated songwriters of my generation like Bob Dylan for instance wrote the lyrics first as he was a poet, then formed the music to fit...albeit most of Bobs music was fairly simplistic, he always managed to find the right rhythm and melodies to compliment the feeling, message and mood of his lyrics.

I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to formulate songs, and I suppose a "pro" should be able to adapt to many various ways....but maybe not all can. For those of you who can, I salute you...you have a gift I apparently do not possess.

 

A few tips from the pros

https://audiosex.pro/threads/how-to-write-a-pop-song-featuring-the-cure.20159/

 

Last edited: Mar 22, 2016

As you said NextGenSound. A load of crap! There are no finite ways of writing a track. Some start with words, others with chords, others with drums. I’ve had successes with all those approaches. Your friend needs a little wake up call. A mindset change. Is he really that pro a song writer if he can’t fit lyrics into a pre-made song? That’s actually easier in my opinion than starting from lyrics.

Again, just my experiences as a song writer.

 

Just my .02 cents, because I've ran into that same situation quite alot...depending on the political position I hold over or below the songwriter (sounds weird but only way to describe it) they won't write to anything but simple chords and a minimalist drum track. This is the common case where the songwriter works with higher up producers / projects. Oddly enough, to even get the songwriters to listen to my material initially, they wanted to hear full completed records (which they didnt write to either). This isnt all, in fact some of the dopest writers I know love when I send a complete idea, therefore the vibe is already spelled out and they can create off of my template. Others, like the songwriter you were with, prefer to set the scene themselves.

Similar to what everyone has said here, but don't take offense to it. I know I did at first =/

 

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People using words like "all" and "everybody" are not really good people to discuss with, because this always will piss the other person off. There is no doubt that these opinions are always wrong. It would be logical to just ignore talk like this, but most of the time we can't.

The way I approach tracks really depends on the person I'm working with. So your friend is most likely not the person you should work with in this way. Just note this for the next time and in the future ask how they like to work, before inviting them into a project.

 

LoL I thought the same thing!!!!! Most of my songs are me singing random words and I thought the same thing!! Even play the songs for my wife who looks at me like I'm a crazy man hahahaha!!!!!! Awesome!!

 

Last edited: Mar 22, 2016

Honestly he has yet to have a commercial release, the artist (singer) I created this song for has worked with many producers one in particular from the UK (she's Canadian) and the song is lighting up Canadian radio...The way I see it is he missed out on an opportunity to get a chunk of the publishing and get a freggin song out!!! Guess my workflow is not "pro" enough lol!! I'm over it now and laugh but I was a little upset at first!!

 

I feel the same way! The vibe was already present in the arrangement and melody, even the phrasing was there too! I found a slam poet who is big in our local scene who welcomed the opportunity to participate in something artistic! I'm better off working with someone with that type of mindset anyway!!

 

Agreed!!! 100%

 

To be honest I do start my process like this, but I tend to decide what type of mood I want to impart on the listener first and then pick a key to play in (I try to use a familiar key to the artist I want to pitch the song to) then use a key/chord chart to guide me in how to change chords from section to section while staying in the key of the song (or relative minor/major) Usually it's the bridge I find tricky!! The damn bridge always gets me!!!!

 

I usually start with Acoustic guitar. The lyrics come after finding the right set of chords. That's how it usually works for me.

 

There's really only one true way to write a song. The lyrics come first and then the music, the music comes first and then the lyrics or they both come at the same time. There is no other way, and if you disagree then I guess that you're just not a pro after all.