...and then you start opening possibilities and discovering new ways to "do your stuff" and realize you'll be working on it until you die.

One has to envy those who don't study anything about music and just "play what they feel", to me that's an amusing joke.. specially when some of them realize (decades later) what they've been missing out.

 

Now I understand your motivation. So let me add this: I'm not, nor will I ever be, a theory basher! I think we all agree that you have to learn at least something. I remember very well my bloody fingers, when learning to play my first chords on my father's steel string.
And I don't want to point to the fingers, but the learning process...

I feel the same. I'm looking at other musicians as a source of inspiration. I might adapt some things I read here on the forums about the processes. And I think that's what a musician's forum should allow for.

Agreed

 

I'm not sure, if this was meant ironically, but I experience something like that nowadays. If I look back at my very first songs, long ago, I am fascinated how I was able to do them, with just creating from my heart. Even more, nowadays I'm unable to do songs that catch the spirit of the early ones. To be honest, I miss that times. It feels pretty much like losing your innocence.

 

You're referring to something else, I would call that "intuition + less doubting", which is what happens when you're a kid starting out. You grab unto the little things that you can do and make the most out of it.

I was talking about something completely different which is usually found within guitar players: acting like "I play what I hear in my head" as if you have excelent relative pitch or something and in the end what it really means is "I let my fingers glide randomly along the pentatonic".

Common BS that has been spreading like a disease is the idea that to play over a blues progression (I7 IV7 V7) all you need is a simple minor pentatonic all over it. Kids or deaf people might believe it... others will just look (or hear) the facts.

I have to say, I am not that much into blues but I've never heard a good blues player doing that... ever. In fact, blues soloing ends up having more notes over those 3 chords than most of the genres (notes as in degrees, not the amount). Yeah, it's the pentatonic... plus at least 4 notes most of the time, which means we're way past pentatonic and even diatonic.

 

Think I'm gonna plug in my guitar now and try out the latest goodies

 

What are those?

I rarely go beyond TSE808 + S-Gear..

 

LoL, that's the most irrelevant stuff i read for today. Since when a rap vocal is that melodical so you would need to write chords/harmonies around it? A rap vocal can be even backed just by a bunch o drums and get away with it. Not with the real singing though. (exactly what the O.P. asked)
Actually, a rap vocal mostly doesn't even need something custom for it. You can load up a rap vocal on almost any beat because it doesn't represents any specific scale or key signature.

 

Only with shitty generic raps is that the case. The lyrics for a majority of my bars, aren't so arbitrarily placed any any random beat. Especially the ones written over an odd time signature.

Besides, even if you disregarded the harmonic content of a rap lyric, but the rapper is not paying any attention the rhythm of music behind it. There's little to no point of having any music behind it in the first place. Because if your not following the harmonies or the rhythms of a song, you're not playing the same song.

 

But i don't get the "rap vocals" and "harmonies/scales". Timing wise/rhythm and stuff i agree, but musically wise unless that rapper is also singing the chorus. I mean, seriously.. take any rap vocal that doesn't supports any specific scale and you can come up with the right beat for it blazingly fast with mostly no music theory skills needed, all you need to know is to "make beats".

Regarding "harmonic content of a rap lyric", have you ever heard a rapper asking the producer: "Yo my man, switch the song scale to Gminor because it doesn't suits my flow tone" really? lol

When you actually sing, your voice is purposely following notes in order to represent the melody in a certain scale. A rap line it's not sang for the "melody line" and that's why it's not a big fuss when it comes about producing something around it.

 

I love this topic So many pages! I tried to read through them all, especially that giant mega post. For me, everything Kapatron mentioned rings true with my process as well.

Its hard for me to dictate / relate to how much theory comes into play when creating organic compositions. Based on my musical roots (piano for 22+ years) I've found the time I took to learn / study my favorites more useful (I still recycle some of the elements that inspired me to learn).

I also agree that it would be fun / helpful to listen to what she listens to - get in the zone together.

Sometimes the excitement can quickly turn into frustration. Try not to feel pressured to "create on the spot" - usually, I like to use the first couple sessions to hear vocals live, bounce vocal / composition ideas around, etc. This gives me a better idea of what the singer "hears in their head". The freedom to create with confidence.

Finding Chords:

Typically, I utilize my left hand for bass octaves / chord extensions and right hand for chords. Then I would loop 4+ bars on continuous record (ableton style) of a section of the vocals - close my eyes until I hit that cord.... until "it feels right" - build from there.

EASY EXAMPLE: A Octave Left Hand - C Maj Natural (1-3-5) Right Hand. While this may seem like an unconventional combo at first glance, it actually creates a really beautiful voicing that leaves room for the vocals to harmonize with the melody of the chords, or vice versa.

 

Subdividing problems into smaller chunks is a common problem solving technique. You could even go a step further and loop a single bar to find some nuance that exists between a segment of melody and various chords, while eliminating others. You will then have a list of candidate chords from which you can construct a 4, 8 or 16 bar section. Sometimes I slow the tempo to get a closer look (feel) of the notes interacting and colliding.

Once you have your color pallet (sounds, chords, melodies, etc.) in place, you can then start over again and introduce some rhythm, dynamics & emotion into your playing, as you bring your new creation to life.

 

Last edited: Feb 24, 2016

Well when I get there I will let you know I'm a bit newer to the pitch-this-song game but I am definitely doing a lot more of it these days as the quality of catalog increases. Topline is probably the rarer skill to have... and overall does seem to take up the most time; In my opinion, the perfect topline has the power to make or break the hit far greater than the typical moves we can make on the production side.

While quality tracks are definitely not in surplus, I know guys who have literally hundreds of tracks waiting for lyrics or melody (or both)... then there are other guys that have just a few average tracks with a sick melody / lyric or even just the main parts filled in... getting cuts. They'll remix the track anyway if it isn't perfect (and sometimes when it is lol; A&R ha)

It might surprise people who don't pay much attention to the industry rat race, how many huge artists are just sitting there, on the quarterly casting lists asking (read: begging) for their next hit. The reality: there just aren't enough dedicated songwriters who do what it takes (jumping through flaming hoops) to get working in the system so they can really test the limits of their brilliance.

 

It makes sense if you consider the vast amount of people participating in music (I include professionals, hobbyists, even karaoke singers), yet there is such a tiny percentage of people who can come anywhere near composing a hit song. I don't think it is connected to musical ability either, as the pros are equally as bad!

 

Money is what makes songs sell and achieve hit status, it has very little to do with music.

 

If you see it that way, then it is absolutely all about money, since all art derives it's value and meaning from the consumer of that art.

I use the term hit in a rather more looser context, not necessarily measured strictly in terms of cash.

 

Last edited: Feb 24, 2016

In my opinion being able to write a hit song informs nada on the worth or prowess of a musician or a songwriter.

 

My definition of a hit depending on the type of song would be accepted by a wide audience, widely accepted by a niche marked, admired by peers, celebrated by critics, etc. There are many ways to measure the success of a song. I can think of some that tick multiple boxes above that hardly made any money, but they changed the direction of music.

 

@Zenarcist
I think you misunderstood these two quotes. They weren't talking about money after the fact, but before the fact. Meaning, a song isn't a hit because it made a lot of money. But rather, a lot of money is what took to make the song a hit. Not just for the music and video productions, but also to grease the proper wheels.

 

It's murky territory. I got what they were saying but I just branched off into my own artistic utopia in search of the true measure of worth in music. I still think there is a shortage of people who can produce the goods on the 'writing for others' side of things though, as the same names keep cropping up behind the scenes time and again.

I also know a woman from one of our local songwriting groups who won a co-writing Grammy for best song, which kinda also goes against what is being said, as it was nothing to do with money and everything to do with talent. She just hooked up with the singer and they knocked out a few tunes.

 

Last edited: Feb 24, 2016

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