@HETISFRANK

There are a million ways to skin a cat, which is to say that you'll find examples of someone who did something in a million different ways. Usually people tend to look for examples who make them feel at ease with their laziness (what they already do/know) or that, to put it simple, people look for examples that apparently justify their standpoint... even if the example at hand is something that was executed by only one person in the world.

Of course you can use only the piano roll, you can even use a pitch fork and imagine all the other intervals by ear.. I can do that, but I am not telling other people to follow that just because that's something that works for me. At this point I am not seeing foster911 with capabilities to compose full symphonies in his head without playing all the notes.. and even so, the result would be crap because knowing the minor scale doesn't turn you into a Beethoven.

You can even not write any music at all but if your goal is to make music, then that might not be helpful. A LOT of producers never get out of the basic minor scale and have great success with it, if that's what you're looking for, do that. Don't expect to be the guy with new ideas and command over your creativity if you're just following what was "good enough" for other people.

Bottom line is, I would recommend to anyone that they should get an instrument (basic midi keyboard is enough) to be able to quickly experiment with ideas, train their ear, etc. It's much easier and "musically connected" to play the pitches directly than to draw them all first, make mistakes with timing/duration, move pitches around, etc.

Anyway, this is just my opinion based on my experience. If you feel that drawing simple melodies is good enough for you and the rest is all about sound design, do that... just don't expect to become a good or even average musician/composer by doing that. In the end, you'll be just what you practiced for.. in that case, a "minor scale piano roll basic melody designer".

 

heaven is for pussies, real musicians go to hell

 

I think it's very pretentious and even somewhat demeaning to assume that somebody that is not able to use an actual piano to play the notes of his melody can only write things in a standard minor scale or anything like that. At first you rightfully point out there are loads of different ways to get to the same goal and later just completely nullify that point by saying it's handicapping yourself into making only very basic minor scale melodies.

It seems like you are not differentiating correctly between complex music and good music. Loads of very complex music is extremely crappy and loads of very simple music is really good. It's not about making the most complex piece out there, it's about making pieces that you like as an artists and hopefully will be liked by anyone else that happens to stumble upon it. Like you said, even if one were to stay in the standard minor scale only when writing their music, there are plenty of people that have achieved insane levels of success with just that.

Now, I don't know who you are exactly or what your achievements are. But I'm going to assume you're not a world touring musician but a hobbyist (or maybe even professional at local/national level) with a very solid foundation in music. If that were to be true, then there are plenty of examples out there that have achieved ridiculous levels of success with way less musical knowledge or capabilities. Be noted, success in this case is also very subjective because anyone has a different definition for that very term.

So, I agree partially but don't think you're demeaning tone is justified. If somebody wants to completely master their creativity and innovate within a world in which almost everything and anything has been done already, then yes, it's probably extremely smart to start playing an instrument as soon as possible. And chances are he is already somewhat late and it's definitely going to take a VERY long time before he gets to that point. If somebody wants to write enjoyable music that's accessible and just sounds good overall, it would still helpful to being able to play an instrument but it's far from required.

Some videos that are relevant to our little discussion:

Always remember: good artists copy, great artists steal.

Anyways, this will be last I comment on this little discussion because I feel like we won't come to any form of an agreement and this is actually pretty off-topic from the original question. Also, I don't actually have the time to indulge myself into this discussion and should probably just spent it elsewhere.

 

There's no demeaning tone in what I've said, that's all in your mind. There's a huge difference between using a basic major/minor scale all the time in everything you do "because that's what you want" vs "because that's all you're able to do". You're acting very defensive and that says a lot.

I never said an instrument is required. Also don't know why you're mixing "success at writing your music" with "commercial success".

I won't bother to answer your assumptions besides what I actually said, although I'll summarize the general idea:


One should not assume that what works for others is just what we need. First, because we don't know exactly how it works for them, most of the times not even the person knows... and secondly, because it's all very relative. What a person consider's as the "ultimate goal" might be someone else's notion of "first step" into the goal.

I don't care if playng a minor scale is your goal... don't care either if a symphony is your goal... all I am saying is that playing with the actual notes instead of drawing them will let you learn music better for obvious reasons.

I don't know why should anyone feel "better about themselves" just because some dude sells a lot and never touched an instrument but anyway, I don't give two fucks about that. Simple logic and critical thinking will reveal to anyone who wants to become a better musician that playing actual instruments will actually help. Now you can become a better musician or a better excuse maker, that's up to you.

 

Last edited: Nov 8, 2015

We've all been telling foster911 that, although he enjoys reading about theory, reading it won't cut it if he doesn't hear it. Having a MIDI keyboard is useful for many things and no one is telling him to start playing songs on keyboard, just to try out things on one... to hear them and try things out.

I don't understand how that could be an advice to be questioned, seriously... but hey, if you must "win"...

..foster911, don't get a keyboard or any other instrument.

Done.

 

The funny thing about that expression is that most people don't seem to get it, although they keep using it.

 

I have downloaded almost all of the piano and keyboard video tutorials from the Audioz and watched them at least once and tried to discover even the intricate details. But I should admit that the only thing I have not done much or taken serious would be playing and listening to the single sound of eg a piano. I had been lost in the sound world of plugins without noticing that the music knowledge is hidden in the pitches and rhythms not the strange waveforms.

 

Use simple sounds (piano is ok) when testing musical stuff (ear training, simple interval recognition, scales/modes, bass and melody line, etc). Sound design has nothing to do with all that stuff so forget the sounds and fx's.

The next person to say that I am bashing on sound design or that someone sold many records without the "musical stuff" wins a big bag of nothing so, don't rush.

 

yes, lot's of it! concious careful listening...

 

..and theory is what enables you to "name things" and store the ideas in your brain.

That's why I keep telling you that it's no good filling your brain with book covers when you don't have the actual books in your brain (yet).

 

Unfortunately in the electronic musics I do not see even simple chord progressions and melodies like the below ones that are common in the music theory classes. I doubt even electronic composers try to think about the modes in their musics like me did before. Maybe because of not learning or not trying to utilize the basics and just jumping to a point searching for the sounds.

Btw, Is it easy to play the below ones by 10 fingers on a real keyboard or by just 1 finger on the mouse and drag and doping that lasts really long and finally causes the arthritis?

I think the people who have chosen the path of the electronic genres need to rethink about the music. They are tones of tools helping in manipulation of the sounds but a few on the music itself. This shows that the most of tool developers are just thinking about their pocket not the music and seduce the people by sounds not music.

http://www.mediafire.com/watch/kw9jkto8xkc5irk/Phrygian_mode.mp4
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/g3941ezy6cinzl8/Mixolydian_mode.mp4

 

Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2015

If your objective is to become a person that makes his own art pieces, learn as much as possible. Need to be humble enough to look at what has been done before, there's always something for you to get from each musical context. The way you interpret what you hear/read is what will create the "you as an artist". Just because you focus your awareness in learning about counterpoint for instance, that doesn't mean that it will only be useful if you want to write baroque music or something like that.. what it does is in the ways of expanding your creative mind and your bag of tools in musical awareness.

Don't get caught up in cheesy thinking like "someguy sells millions and knows nothing". That works for what it works, but if that was the topic I wouldn't even be answering.

Learn from everywhere, link the theory to the sounds you hear and you'll build up your own voice instead of being enslaved by lack of knowledge/practice and calling it "I play what I feel". Again, be humble, don't get on with the douche mentality that in music you are free if you know nothing, it's quite the opposite.

The more you practice/study the more you'll be able to compose what you really want and you'll always have options ("inspiration") when composing instead of being a one trick pony.

And before the haters chime in, I am not bashing Slash, AC/DC, B.B King, piano roll, the minor scale or whatever.. nor am I stating that complex music is the only music worth listening. What I am saying is that if you want to play the same shit for 30 years, do it because that's what you want, not because you don't have any other options.

 

Last edited: Nov 9, 2015

Sorry for that, I do apologize.

 

Music is everything about sound design. If I want to get experimental, I will take electronic instruments over my piano and acoustic guitar any day.

 

Awesome, no need for pitches anymore. Maybe most of the musical genres shouldn't be considered music either since they are played on "static" instruments. Composition, structure and all that I suppose it's overrated too.

 

You know what, all of these ambiguities in mixing the terms together arises from the electronic genres that have yielded a lot to the world without adding much to the music itself.

 

I don't believe that's correct.

The ambiguities and specially the confusion in regard to music comes essentially from lack of context. People often make broad statements about music as if they are talking about some universal truth when in fact all the theories and concepts ONLY make sense within a specific context (time in history, genre, part of the world, etc).

Even the way we perceive music isn't the same for everyone, that's why you can theorize the same stuff in different ways, in the end the logic (the math) will add up anyway, only the perception differs.

 

To answer some of your questions, here's where I stand personally:

"How do you think for your new track? I mean what are your steps from the bottom up?" - I start with a chord progression - on a keyboard or piano (Ivory American Concert D is cool). Then I put down a bass line (I mostly use Serum or Nexus2 for this), before adding some pads (I use practically everything for that). Next, I put in drums (For electronic, I use Groove Agent 4 by Steinberg). I record a rhythm guitar track next usually because I can't make a song without playing one of my guitars - Particularly my 1987 Gibson Les Paul Studio. Then I add a lead (Don't get me started). I will lastly add some sidechains because it just sounds awesome in anything - genres be fucked. Lol. LFOTool is pretty umm.. sexy for that.
"How do you consider the story during the music development or you're acting storylessly?" - I am not a good singer, so no lyrics for my songs. But I consider the genre. For instance, If I produce Ambient music or Tropical music (which I usually do), I will picture the beach and me laying down in the sand, combing at the pure whiteness while having a subject (typically a desired romantic partner) on my mind that I can't let it go but summer is singing me to sleep with the crashing of her waves.
For Trance, I think about driving down a highway in California or something while chasing the sunset away into the darkness of the night while wishing my youth away for a better place than my current residence of the time.
For techno, I'll think about a bunch of computers having an orgy around my head while I experience a hangover after getting drunk just to forget my mother in law's godawful face.
For Deep House, I'll think about partying in a Las Vegas casino with some of my friends all night while forgetting about any problematic life outside of there.
For Hip Hop, I'll think about what is currently bothering me negatively (Lyrics needed). Ie: I get in an argument with my ex because I didn't come to her baby shower for a baby she had with another guy and I say she should keep her legs closed or stfu because it's her problem not mine.
These are just examples. The feel goes with the genre of music and the melody, tempo, composition. What's in my heart at the time is what goes into a song. If my heart is empty, then so is the tune/composition.
"Is there any standard one allocated to the electronic musics?" - Yes and no. If you compose a catalog of all different genres like the ones fraifikmushi added, then possibly yes. But understand the electronic music genre comprises of a universe of many different sub-genres (refer to fraifikmushi's response). Electronic applies or can apply to like 80% of the music that is composed in the modern day (at least what's in the mainstream). Most country artists can't even compose a song without some sort of synthesizer in their tracks anymore. Owl City release an "Acoustic" EP last year but it contained synthesized instruments. Comparing electronic music to a genre like Metal or Rap/Hip Hop is like comparing a time period of Super-Eons to that of Millennia.
Industrial artists like ChemLab (Catalyst sent me there) are classified as "Electronic" on iTunes® but have also been considered as "Rock" or even "Metal". You have chillout artists like "Tycho" who could be considered as "House" or "Dance" or even Post rock but have a classification of "Electronic" on iTunes®. Now look both of them up and experience the vast difference in sound and styles. All and all, Electronic music IMHO is like a term for people who can't narrow down all the distinct musical styles available to our ears today. That said, it helps to be more specific.
Cheers.

 

I love this comment. So so helpful. I wish other people tell their feelings and workflow here too. They are more than inspiring.

 

Who said anything about pitches, composition and structure? I am talking about colors.

I am from art school, I work with palettes of color. If as you say I should make music with my piano and acoustic guitar, for me it will be just like making a drawing in my sketch book. Which incidentally is exactly how I start all my music, before I add the color. I usually have no desire to sound like what already exists.

 

Last edited: Nov 9, 2015