Music Theory Key

Discussion in 'Education' started by barah sherlock, Sep 21, 2015.

  1. barah sherlock

    barah sherlock Noisemaker

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    Hey world

    I was just wondering when writing a song in a specific key (for example C major)
    Do you have to stick to the C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C notes strictly?

    Do you guys go off the scale and use # or b too? Or is that even acceptable?
    I've sometimes went off the scale, so was just wondering if anyone else does that too.
     
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  3. rhythmatist

    rhythmatist Audiosexual

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    Depending on how you want the song to sound, other notes outside of the major scale are used as passing tones or create deliberate dissonance and/or tension. There are no "wrong notes". There are no "rules" without exceptions. Sometimes notes outside the scale find their way into certain chords, usually leading the listener from one section of a song to another. Key signatures are just a language/way for musicians to communicate ideas. If you want to learn a little more, this is a good link. http://www.artofcomposing.com/08-diatonic-harmony
     
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  4. strangeranium

    strangeranium Ultrasonic

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    Totally acceptable.

    The blue notes of the blues scale are a perfect example. The flat 3rd and flat 7th are from the minor scale. The flat 5th is from neither, yet fits perfectly and indispensably at the very middle point of the chromatic range of the scale.
    The blues scale is a wonderful scale to study. So simple, yet when understood correctly, can be used, to give the major a scale, a very minor feeling to it. I read somewhere that when John Lennon first heard a minor scale played on top of a major chord progression, he said it blew his mind and opened the door to a new world of compositions, because he all of a sudden understood the key to the blue notes.

    Diminished scales, and augmented scales are the other obvious and theoretically correct examples.

    Indian scales are made up of so many notes that are often tiny in interval, yet still sound correct.

    With experimentation, one can learn how to colour the major scale with the altered notes.

    With experience, one can create entire new scales by deciding which of the new notes to leave in and which of the old notes to leave out.

    eg, replace the 2nd and 3rd, with a flattened 2nd and 3rd, and do not use the original even as a passing note.
    Add a flat 7, while keeping original 7.
    replace the 4th with a sharpened 4th. leave 5th and 6th intact.

    This is an incredible, middle eastern sounding scale. It possibly has a name, and it is possible it is an ancient scale from a ancient stringed instrument, of that i do not know.( I am positive I am not the first to play it is what I am getting at.}
    What I do know is, that purely by fiddling around with scale of E major, pushing the notes out of scale, and jamming with a sitar like sound on an electric guitar,
    in a large cloud of smoke in a candle lit room, with a gaggle of pixie like femme fatales,
    I discovered, [rediscovered!!] this scale...

    So, get at it.
    Learn the standard scales, and learn their rules, so you then know where the boundaries lie.
    AND THEN
    Explore the sonic world outside of the scale. Outside of the boundaries.
     
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  5. TippingPoint

    TippingPoint Guest

    This one How to Write a Melody? was quite helpful for me to really understand the topic of how to build tension and to use the right notes for that. The quality isn't the best but the content is really nice.
    Combined with the link from rhythmatist I think you should have something to start to play around. :)
     
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  6. Vince Bramich

    Vince Bramich Ultrasonic

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    of course it's acceptable. Try to keep in mind that music theory came about as a result of popular convention not by design.
    And it only applies to western music. Listen to music from the middle east or asia. At first it sounds so discordant because we are used to western patterns but after a while it will show its beauty and make a major scale over a 1 - 5 - 6 - 4 progression sound odd.

    Skilled improvisers will often riff over chords with different modes of which there are 6 which takes you way off key but gives a different feel to the song.

    Having said this, uses these techniques sparingly so they have room to make an impact. Less is more in this case.
     
  7. Clandestine

    Clandestine Platinum Record

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    Anything is "acceptable" and there are no specific rules other than to say certain notes sound more acceptable over a given key.
    A good place to start would be to study modal theory which gives you the ability to improvise and apply several scale patterns over any given key
    Notes in C Major C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
    then break it down and make a chord scale and practise your scales over the top of each chord i.e

    C Major = Ionian (MAJOR) (ROOT)
    Dm = Dorian
    Em = Phrygian
    F = Lydian
    G = Mixolydian
    Am = Aeolian (Relative minor)
    B half diminished = Locrian (has a flat 5 so sounds strange)
    Back to C Major

    Every Major has a relative minor so in this case C major relative minor is A minor (Aeolian)
    Aolian always representing the minor key that you are in.
    Half Major based, Half are minor based and Locrian is rubbish part for diminished Jazz type stuff.
    Most sequences of notes can be made to sound perfectly acceptable and it is just in the main the starting position and end position that are important.

    Good Luck :yes:
     
  8. Vince Bramich

    Vince Bramich Ultrasonic

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    Very good advice.
    If you only take one thing from this thread it should be this
     
  9. Crater

    Crater Ultrasonic

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    I think almost everything has been said...
    Once i read something like: "theory is just theory". Believe it or not, that exploded on my brain... :invision:

    Good luck :thumbsup:
     
  10. ovalf

    ovalf Platinum Record

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    Someone understand that tonal and 12 tone are just an ocidental culture thing?
    When you practice a lot tonal is just boring, thats why most of dance and rap sounds like shit, a thing that any child can do and even some mammals...
    Microtonal music and integral serial music can open a lot the mind, thats why any serious musician must hear different music.
    If a composer do not know the audio history of music he will repeat the past with an ego illusion that he made something new... Thats why exist só many boring music!
     
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  11. Vince Bramich

    Vince Bramich Ultrasonic

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    there's no shortage of pretentious douche bags that make music only they and their mates enjoy and think it's more important to be unique than good.

    Don't shit on other people dude you just sound like a wanker.
    Music is awesome. All of it has value
     
  12. Clandestine

    Clandestine Platinum Record

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    I understand what ovalf trying to say but I have to agree with Vince on this one.
    Tonal isn't just boring.
    You could argue that every Microtonal Nuance has already been accomplished already and I haven't a clue as to why u would create an "ego illusion" by playing tonally correct material.
    Just about everything has already been done but there are many other ways to put your own signature on something. For example the vibrato, tone, dynamics etc.
    If anything knowing & understanding modal theory makes it far easier to improvise and play "outside the box" and adapt to any given key etc. Some players, play certain ways simply because they like it that way and their music for me personally is far from boring.
    One example would be Shawn Lane. Probably one of the most skilled guitarists to have ever lived.
    He could play Melodic in key if preferred through to every type of Indian micro-bend, scale etc.
    You can't simply say that something is boring just because it's tonally correct.
    Some people just prefer to play that way and they possess the highest levels of skill. People like Robben Ford, Larry Carlton etc the list goes on.
    They can play however they choose and when they want to play melodically correct nuances they normally incorporate individualism in other ways such as vibrato that nobody else can recreate.
    At the end of the day it's all about preference and what "one" finds boring, another might find compelling.
     
  13. Vince Bramich

    Vince Bramich Ultrasonic

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    That's a much better way of saying it. Sorry ovalf for my last post, didn't mean to be a dick. I just get a bit defensive sometimes.
    Clandestine wrote what I should have. No hard feeelings I hope
     
  14. Brother Ovalf, if in your opinion tonality can be blamed for "most" of dance and rap sounding turd-like to you, can you please give examples or instances where you feel that it is elevated above this designation, and what are the elements of your choices that transcend and carry them further up the ladder and raise them to your standards. Examples are always welcome.
     
  15. Clandestine

    Clandestine Platinum Record

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    Yeah is a hard one really :yes:

    I mainly listen to Instrumental Guitar music. So in that context, I look at things from ones own perspective but it is important when passing
    judgement to be as subjective as possible I guess.
    I'm also quite fond of a lot of Rap Music and listen to a lot of it and you can't just label such an important genre in one simple context.
    You also have to remember that much Rap etc made up mainly focused around a Narrative so there is "original" content straight away.
    Also it contains the human voice, possibly the most versatile instrument (outside guitar of course :winker:) capable of just about every micro-tonal nuance and interval in it's range.
    Much of it is made of a repeating narrative based over simple rhythmical content so it's going to be pretty damn hard to Rap over a 5/4 backing track based around Locrian and diminished etc. It's not really going to work in 99.9 percent of tracks :no:
    If you also consider the juxtaposed tempos of the narrative as compared with the backing it can be incredibly complex indeed.

    However for Indian/Oriental type vocal stuff it such backing could maybe work rhythmically it's different and intricate in other areas so such could possibly work :dunno:

    Whilst I agree in the sense that maybe no one wants to hear pentatonic scales all the time you can also argue that there several stunning musicians who mainly focus on pentatonic scale structures i.e Zakk Wylde, Jeff Waters, Jeff Beck and Eric Johnson.
    You can say pentatonic is simplistic but listen to the immense phrasing, vibrato, precision that artists such as Zakk Wylde put on it :woot:
    Amazing musician, Ozzy doesn't hire anything less guitar wise but most Zakk Wylde is just pentatonic with country roots like Steve Morse but wide vibrato rather than the thin vibrato of Morse.
    Both incredibly Gifted artists who in the main utilise pentatonic/chromatic type scale structures. "Boring", not at all, :no:

    As EDM was also mentioned you have to keep in mind that there quite a fair bit of science involved in the production of such.
    Firstly it's made specifically for people to dance to and enjoy. As we are not all the most gifted that way then a certain tempo
    i.e 128 BPM is said to be optimal. Once again, the average person can't dance very well to Locrian, 6/8,60 BPM or whatever and if they can it probably won't be much fun :no:
    Other theories suggest that tempo's of around 130 BPM mimic the heart rate of a foetus in the womb and therefore induces natural endorphin release and such.

    Tribal music such as maybe used by Shaman use are meant to invoke trance-like states and so tempos of around 150 BPM considered optimal.
    Again in EDM certain frequencies are considered optimal and it's mainly designed for making it optimal to the average human being.
    So a certain degree of infrastructure and architectural design is a good thing for such types of music.

    As they say it's not what you've got but what you do with it and it's all subjective and what I write is just my own opinion.
    Doesn't make me right or wrong :no:

    Ovalf a cool guy a probably meant something a bit different maybe but I get the general idea of what he means I think.

    Sorry 4 the huge post, Peace :bow:
     
  16. Yea, what Clandestine said.
     
  17. kouros

    kouros Platinum Record

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    I am a recent user here and this place is feeling a bit "odd" already.

    I've been talking on another topic about musical conventions, history of music, relativity, western vs "other places", intervalic knowledge, musical views, etc etc etc... pretty much the same subjects that have arised on this topic here.


    The big difference is that over there almost everyone thought I was some sort of alien Satan whose mission was to destroy staff notation or some crap like that. Looking at this thread now, it feels like I am on another forum. :rofl:


    Luckily, today I've noticed the ignore button. :bleh:
     
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