Let me try to re-phrase my point of view to improve clarity.

It is my opinion that going onto KVR and violating their simple rules and promoting piracy is an ignorant and arrogant thing to do. It shows no respect or consideration for people that are spending their lives making tools and technology for the rest of us to make music with.

I am not judging people for actually stealing software, films or music that they did not pay for. I am judging people for having the attitude that they somehow "deserve or are entitled to" literally anything they want (films, music, books or software). I am saying "Be mature and honest about what you are actually doing.". Do what you must, but don't try to bullshit me that what you are doing is justifiable.

I am also judging people for playing mental games pretending that they are only taking a copy of something and therefore they are not depriving the rights holders of their just due since the rights holders can still sell unlimited copies. This is a completely false argument in the wider view of has theft taken place or is it harmful to the development of our civilization.

I am also judging people for being so short-sighted that they do not see that by simply taking what they want because they feel like they are entitled to it for some bizarre reason they are eliminating the support for the next generation of art, music and technology and what we are left with is corporate sewage. It is very similar to energy companies polluting the air, earth and water in the search of profits while simultaneously destroying the health and future viability of the entire planet. In my example the "pirates" are the oil company and the "earth" is the present and future ability of people to express themselves, communicate with each other outside the corporate machine and for anyone to ever have a job that isn't serving a corporate overlord.

Art is very important for society to remain healthy and develop in a positive way. For the last 2 generations all of the power has shifted to the giant corporations that own the internet, cable and media companies. Their voice is the only voice. Regular people have had their voices silenced because the current situation only allows sponsored artists (either corporate or even worse.. rich parental) a chance to develop an audience. The point of view of nearly all popular music, art and film has shifted to only represent the safe, sanitized and supportive of the corporate view of the world and how people should live their lives. This in my opinion has been a very, very bad thing.

 

I agree with what you say about disrespect to post about warez on kvr. It is simple. They have the rule so follow or leave.

The rest of it make no sense to me. Corporate have owned and control everything for long time. Expensive gear kept the little people from making music. Many small artists from years ago never recorded things to tape, too expensive.

Now we have file sharing, audio websites, video websites, is easier to promote now.

This stuff i dont see what has to do with warez. Because some kid in some country warezd FLStudio, corporation somewhere else get stronger? If this kid never had the money to buy it, how is this lost money of software dev?

Now this kid have FLStudio and he can make music. He can upload it to youtube. It is not corporate safe sanitized music. Warez helped what you find to be problem in this case.

I do not argue about warez being thieft or not, right or wrong. What is right is to buy the stuff you use (if you has the money) because this will hopefully mean updates.

What is more problem for the arts is when some fresh start musician save money for long time to buy some software to make music and the software is pile of shit, this person will not buy as easy in future.

 

A song is considered intellectual property. A teenager is playing a song on his boom box at the village green as someone walks by and hears the song. The melody gets stuck in their head and they begin to whistle it. The get home, pick up their guitar and play and sing the song until they feel confident to play the song at a party three days later. Is this a crime involving intellectual property rights and are there lost sales involved or criminality? Is someone who hears the song and likes it more likely to buy the song? Is there a difference between hard goods intellectual rights such as genetically modified corn and soft goods such as music and software? I sincerely ask to be enlightened on all of these points.

 

> The melody gets stuck in their head and they begin to whistle it.
Interesting point that I have a hard time to answer in a generic manner.
To go one step further: What if, out of the millions of possible combinations of notes and timing combinations, two people somewhere in the world are having the same idea of a melody at about the same time. Say, one of them only puts some effort in protecting the idea legally while the other one just starts writing a song and finish it. Now, who has the right to publish it a) legally and b) emotionally?
It's not that the melody didn't exist long before, it's just that two people wrote it down and tried to make them their own, in a way not unlike what Kook said earlier about traditional theft and claim of property.
Now what does the end user or consumer pay for?
The idea?
The act of claiming it as the artist's own idea?
The process of finishing and distributing a final product?
Owning the right to use the product, but not the product itself?

People have always tried to set up rules to avoid discussion about these exact points, and now we have a ruleset that is somehow supposed to work in everyday life. But I really don't think these rules are the final answer, because they just fail to work in so many cases.
Genetically modified plants are a good example: Say, a farmer purchases seeds from a company that hacked, cracked and modded them to be able to claim their own product and make big money with something that has existed for 1000s of years before, for free, in nature. Do they have the right to do it? Legally - yes, but otherwise?!?
Then, say, another farmer has his land (that he once had to buy from someone who claimed a free space his own, just like that, with hard-earned money) right next to the one who uses geneticall modified plants. Difference is, that this second farmer does not want to use such plants at all, but one day finds plants on his own ground that are genetically "infected" by the ones from his neighbor.
How can he defend himself against this to happen?

People can make rules and rules and rules, but as long as profit stands over offering something good to people, they will be misused to either make more money, or to stop other people from making money.

I guess there's enough material - errm, should I better say intellectual thoughts? - for opening a new topic about these questions.

 

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LoL

 

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@The -RoBoT, I loved Romper Room.

 

This is the kind of dictator who will hire Indian guys to code his apps, for a fraction of the price, and then will come here and talk about human rights, globalization and rules/laws set by the different world governments, and how cool it is, being able to sell a product in 100 different countries without paying taxes on those countries.

The same guy that will pay 100 little euros to a poor but good sound designer, for a full sound bank, sounds he will include in his 200 euros synth that he will sell thousands of copies, but the sound designer won't even make an extra euro from all those sales, and will lose all the rights over that soundbank, even if some of those sounds are used by some big top artists on a particular song that will sell 5 million albums.
He will then praise how great some laws are, that allow rich people from rich countries to abuse and exploit poor talented workers from Asia, Africa or eastern Europe. Remotely.

When was the last time a company or developer has adapted his prices according to the country the product will be sold in ? Because a polish guy that makes 400 euros a month, an Indian guy that makes 50 euros a month, a Luxembourg or swiss guy who makes 4000 euros a month, and a German or English guy who will make 2 or 3000 euros per month,
Well, not everybody can spend 100 or 200 euros on a plug-in. But everybody in this world should be able to make music if he likes it.

NO. IT'S 200 euros for EVERYBODY, or go die miserably like a dog.

How to not love these guys who have so many lessons to give to other people...

line removed by mod. offensive.

 

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Only thing that matters to me is the truth, so yeah, had amazing day and wish all of you have even better one

 

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I always lied about using warez down there

 

Absolutely true!!
EXPLOITATION goes hand in hand with PROFIT-makers.
= Dog eat Dog. Eat more and more meat > meat needs land to get (ab)used for agricultural mass farming,
> spoiling the soil and air > Mr.John Smith getting fatter and fatter > Mr.John Smith will soon need doctor,
> doctor will prescribe him medicine, enslaving him to consume them. Mr.John Smith will work more and
more, or commit crimes to get the cash fast. > If not, Mr.John Smith will take credits from Banks.
> Mr.John Smith will be completely enslaved.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

 

fot that matter I don't EVER recall seeing Bob Dylan perform any of his songs on TV...
TV was comparatively irrelevant to his success,
these days, I don't watch TV at all anymore..because it is such unmitigated garbage..

people who are doing art.. are coming to places like this website.. to at least do something authentic, maybe it's not great
music coming out of here, but it's not slick recycled trash either

aren't you making the point for your opponents, when you talk about how

so why should anyone buy from these giant mega plugin corporations too !??
hallf of it is over-hobbled demos, no, make that cumbersome, insulting paid for product ,

we can recall and compensate people for tainted dog and baby food, lousy made dangerous tires from China,
will you ever see a recall and mass compensation for a lousy implemented plugin, OR a lousy OS (Windows ME, or such )??

 

Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2015

Just keep waiting to see if Jimmy Page and Robert Plant et al are going to give back their millions
to the surviving relatives of all the dirt poor bluesmen they nicked their licks and lyrics from,
oh and Spirit survivors for ripping off Stairway to Heaven's intro....

naaaaaaah maybe in an alternate universe.. !!

 

I used KVR for years...until i realized it was full of newbies trying to be larger than they are.
I remember the LAST thread i contributed to : it was a simple "Low cut or not low cut ?"
There was (one more) stupid "mastering professional" (with his "services" in the signature) saying : i never low cut any track, and if you do it, you are just stupid or a newbie. You see the level of help you will get...

I closed my account, and only use a new account for browsing plugins, presets, news and such.
I will NEVER touch KVR forum again. Time lost with ppl knowing less than you, or devs trying to be smarter than their potential customers.
Tone2 anyone ? I will not tell you again what happened with their (now closed) KVR forum.
I don't even speak about the usual "Sylenth vs anysh*t" or "analog vs digital" or "my grandma against Schwarzenegger"...
There are SOME nice guys. But frankly, after years of KVR forums, i can only count on one hand the nice guys i really miss from KVR.
And yes, OP was about KVR forum, not KVR database and contests

On the other side, even if i'm an assh*le myself, i'm kindly helped on this forum( like my question about Zardonic 10th anniversary intro voice).
And i do my best to help, too. KVR, trying to gain money by any mean, only ban ppl speaking about warez OR ppl disliked by devs...like when they banned LEGIT Tone2 users (Gladiator episod). They are not going to ban other ppl, even if they pollute forum, because they earn clicks on their ads and devs products. One day, it will collapse.

Ask on Gearslutz if they have a KVR forum account And most of Gearslutz users are real professionals. Of course, it is not perfect too. But their forum is a LOT more serious and informative. And they are not scared to ban ppl.

 

Exactly. We pay and shut up.

These companies are readily pointing their finger at us, and calling people pirates, because 10 or 20 guys out of 100 will use a cracked version.
But they don't realize how lucky they are, since 2000-2005, when e-commerce exploded, and selling digital stuff online became a kid's game.

How many dozens, or even hundreds music stores have closed their doors, because of big outlets like thomann musicstore, digitalvillage, and many others? Here, there are at least 5-10 stores that had to close, because lately, people would just go to the store to try out the latest Live controller or this or that guitar. And then, they would order their instruments from an Internet store.

Did those Internet shops feel the smallest remorse, while selling their products online and knowing plenty of physical stores would close because of them?

These devs today should be happy with their incredible easy sales they can make and they do make. 15 years ago, a simple soundbank creator would have to invest a lot of money, just to be able to have a few items for sale, in a couple of music stores. Without no advertising or control over the product, that soundbank creator could sell 20 items per month, on several stores, or maybe less than 5. Totally random, without any kind of control.

Today, that same soundbank can be available for sale on 100 different online stores, with free ads on Craigslist -like websites, with free kvraudio ads and announcements, etc etc, at no cost. And they can reach billions of online users, can use social medias to help promoting their product, and have total control over it.

While they could make 5 or 10 sales in one month, last decade, today, they can easily aim the 100 - 200 sold copies, each month. That's fantastic. Even if, in theory, 5 or 10% of people will chose to try the Warez version, the guy will still be making millions more sales than he could have ever dreamed of !

Just like a manager will ignore the 99% of the great job his employee did, to only focus on the little 1% that was not perfect,
All these greedy companies and their devs will not praise the great opportunities they have had, and the fantastic countless sales they were able to do, but instead, they will focus on the 1 - 5% of sales they didn't do, because of piracy.
DEAR GOD, even if a few people will not pay for the product (because of tons of legit reasons, like not wanting to pay 30 or 40 euros for a 128-sound soundbank, where the 10-15 best sounds were used as a demo, but the remaining 110 sounds suck balls and are unusable), there will still be thousands and thousands of sales, SALES that could only be possible THANKS to the whole Internet, ads, tutorials, buzz and piracy.

The whole Internet just works like that. Companies impose their 150-pages 'EULA' down customers throat, to take away the slightest right they might have had, and to remind them that basically, people aren't becoming owners of anything, but they are just renting the right to temporarily use a product. And on the other side, a few guys choose to use a warez version, because they got fed up of paying for a product that at the end, doesn't fit their needs or doesn't work as it should.

And it's not the warez that will make a company go bankrupt! If a company has to close their doors, it's not because of the 5 or 10% of piracy. It's simply because the products suck, and nobody wants to buy them !

Of course, I hate the assholes who only talk about intellectual properties, blah blah, calling everybody thieves.
Are they smart enough to see the difference between stealing a car, a house, money, a bank account or food, and downloading a warez plug-in or sound bank, for free. a plug-in that will still be sold hundreds of times, each month, where each sale won't require new wood, iron, coal, tools, a warehouse, etc etc. 0 cost. Forever.

No, these idiots are too dumb to understand and see beyond their sole interests.

 

Yep, we're right back to U-he!


@ http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=392570&start=75

 

I dont have much opinion of Urs or U-he, but when he say Someone who is in situation where financial trouble threatens his existance should have better things to do than make music, is STUPID.

So 3rd world countries can not and should not contribute to the art of music? We need more 1st world shit bling bling music? Maybe those warez made music will bring income and enable those people to help themselves to better their life and afford the software in the future. Maybe they will spend no money on warez and discover that making music is not for them and then they will invest the time in something else to better their life, instead of spend money they really cant afford on software.

Why do 3rd world countries or even poor cities in 1st world countries have lots of kids? Because nothing else to do but fuck. Then there is others who use warez to make music.

Say piracy is wrong, say ppl are evil for using warez, say what you want, but dont try to say that making music is not therapy for some people and some of those people simply can not afford the software.

I think this Urs have very different definition of music than me.

 

It's ok, not better and not worse than most.

It has a nice freeware collection and devs database.
Some ppl on KVR knows their wits, but most posts are dumb questions like everywhere.

Yep, cracks aren't tolerated there. Go mess yourself if you don't like that, Kuku.

BTW I remember them banning one well known dev for using user-punishing protection.

 

Thoughts from a little freebie dev.
I made my first ever instrument based on lots of advice on KVR. There are helpful folks who really know their stuff over there. Without KVR bigcat instruments wouldn't exist.
Most of my current kontakt script/GUI comes from help I've received here. Without this forum, my stuff would be much worse (that's a scary thought).
The guy helping me with stuff for the maize VSTis is from the reaper forums. So I've found helpful folk in every audio forum I've visited.

There is a thriving freeware community. Some of the stuff is pretty impressive, pianos, drums, basses that rival at least lower end commercial stuff. Others like orchestral stuff, not so much. Still you can make music 100% free and legal to start if you want. I know the guy at VST4Free is committed to it as am I. Ivy and Karoryfer are making some really good stuff right now. If you are a synth guy there are tons of free synths out there.

On the gentleman who is quoted in the first post. I appreciate him. I used the templates he put out and some little tutorials he did to help me at the start. There are probably still smatterings of his code in my scripts, thought they have been heavily re-written since. But I have compared sample names and samples and not everything he said was 100% true. Same with the DSK guy. I just think you should be honest with your sources. If I use a sample set from Freesound.org, I name the instrument after whoever sampled it. So the Beskhu collection. The guys at KVR called him on it and he got mad. Again I think much of what he did was his own, he just should have avoided the few things that weren't and not gotten so upset when he was called out on the few things that he shouldn't have used.

 

definetly time to lock this thread , and Kookaboo you should quote those threads what you have written over there before you gots banned there that everyone can see your attitude

 

Wouala,

I admit I don't know anything else about you besides your opinion on stealing other peoples work.

I don't know where you are getting your numbers regarding how many sales software companies are making or percentages of pirate downloads.

I strongly suspect you are pulling them out of your butt.


Let's agree to put all of that information aside for now. Let's just pretend all of your numbers are even close to reality.

I re-read your posts and added the phrase - "so I feel completely entitled to download and use everything I want without paying." to the end of every line of your rambling response.

Can you honestly stand behind your statements and feel that it is the proper, responsible, sustainable way to conduct yourself?

Again my attitude really is do what you must, but at least have some shame and humility about the true nature of your actions.

Eventually when you grow up and wish to move out of your parents house you will be faced with a choice of how to make your way in the world. It is my opinion that because of the culture of spoiled, entitled, thieving, immature, short-sighted fools that dominate the digital world and have only grown in number for the last 15 years, the opportunities for anyone to earn money doing anything other than working for a large corporation (doing service labor and selling your hours/weeks/years of your life for the absolute legal minimum they have to pay) is nil. That's the bleak future your generation faces. The jobs of writer, filmmaker, designer, artist, musician, creator, businessperson are going extinct.

The golden rule....

The odds are a few billion to one against you ever creating something out of your own imagination that anyone would ever actually want, such as a book or a film or an album so the chances of the shoe being on the other foot are very, very unlikely. I don't think you will ever understand how it feels to invest years of sacrifice, blood and sweat into a body of work and then in hours watch thousands gleefully take it and enjoy it without paying you. In fact, most of the comments on these forums that I read are members having beefs with each other over mirror links to material they stole from another thief and posted on the sites for personal advertising revenue.

If trees represented art, music and freedom you would be one of the horde of fools chopping down the last tree on Easter Island.

People need money to live. If there is no money in art, artist will do what they must instead of art to simply survive and the world will be poorer without the art they did not create. Ever wonder why every movie and tv show is a hollow reboot of something from the past? The actual artist are going extinct because their habitat has been destroyed.

The freedom of choice for the consumers of art is diminishing under this system. You kind of have a choice now - Comcast or Verizon. As long as you pay your phone/internet/cable bill (which strangely everyone has money for every month) you can have whatever you want from the past. The world of alternative and independent choice is shrinking with every download. The power over what you get to hear, see and think you think gets collected into fewer hands every hour.

POST NO MIRRORS