for the lawyers at audiosex..

if a,say, tone2 customers, buys a tone2 instrument, and if tone2 states on his manuals that they use watermarks, could the buyer be entitled to ASK tone2, so they can prove him that they really watermark the audio, and how it can changes the file content or not, etc etc.
because it would then be normal, for a customer, to have concerns about how his sound and mixes and everything could suffer from any eventual major change on the spectrum, frequencies, etc etc, and that would-could be a legit concern.

would tone2 be able-forced to explain (of course, not by telling how algorithms work and how to reverse them...), but at least, explaining the basic concepts of the watermarking process, so the customer can be less concerned about the whole story and how its implementation can or not affect his sound.

 

Well, DATA watermarks doesnt affect the sound at all..
Most of the time its a little string-code who can be easily detected with a decompiler (Waves Plugins works in this way)...

Image the all watermarks story like the album art in a mp3.. software like iTunes add it.. well, you can go 3-way:

1-Disable the iTunes function
2-Remove it by yourself
3-Listen to your mp3 on an old Creative player who doesnt support cover art, wait to play your file on Winamp and discover that it contains the album art

Point 1-2 is the basically decompiling/reversing/recoding scenario (Team R2R claims to remove watermarks all the time in their motto)..
The point 3 is what the devs hope all time..

Watermark is a prehystoric copy-protection mode, it cames before dongle, serial, etc.. It's cheap, so, many devs still use it..
But they get owned all the time..

Nothin' to worrin' about, it's like a scarecrow now...

Maybe someone at the NSA know all our private identity by the time we wrote this, question' about watermarks, and they laugh their ass off...

 

just imagine a cubasis, a fl studio, etc etc, on a 13 inches tablet. it would be awesome. or simply for using it as an osc controller, midi keyboard (i noticed in a lot of tutorials, producers don't even have a physical midi keyboard, their midi keyboard is on the tablet..).

 

Well, so far there are these results:

foobar2000 DVD-Audio Decoder and Watermark Detector (foo_input_dvda.dll)

I checked out with it those tracks I sent to Music Dealers,
it doesn't see watermarks, but this doesn't meant they are absent

HEX Editor NEO

it opens tracks as digital no audio, so you can see sequences of 0/1,
and some unknown signs that aren't readable (even after decoding),
so, are those signs exactly watermarks I don't know

Would be grateful if somebody resolves that issue

 

I think watermarks is a infringement on privacy. What if I -the artist- want to remain anonymous for my work? (because of mystery) then I buy a "imperfect samples" library which encodes my name as a watermark? There are a lot of artists who want to remain anonymous by choice.

 

Well, and how those anonymous get paid for their music?


Next: found one more resourse that makes watermarking:

http://www.digsound.com/index.php

And the final: I find that this game is much more tricky then some think of, much more...

just read this thread how youtube uses a watermarking service:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-picture/503747-royalty-free-libraries-good-idea.html?highlight=royalty+free+libraries

 

some if not alot of artists like to releast under a other name .
say if they are knowing for making house and there into making hip hop ect as well,
its better for them to be knowing for making house music only,
its unprofessional for them to swap music styles
and will not be taking as series even if they make all round great music.

i think it has to do with there music fans.

some of there topics start of as banana bread and end up with time travel

 

the 0/1s of digital audio you are referring to have nothing to do with code.
To cast some light on the ones and zeros and analog/digital conversion you might find this read interesting.
To open an audio file in a hex editor is like translating portuguese with a turkish dictionary. Yes, the letters are the same, some of them differ slightly, but besides from that it's just baloney.

 

Hi, good topic Id like to place my 1 cent in

xD

I don't see audio watermarking being a major problem unless one created a sample pack full of single hit sounds, lets say for example ''drum-kit single hit sample pack'' with all its samples with watermarking in them created. If every single audio sample from this kit has a watermark and one created his or her own music with these watermarked single hit samples one would be able to detect a high sequence of sound in there work. Maybe equalizing these high pitch sequencing sounds out might get rid of the watermark but, the watermark would still be faintly visible if, one opens up these watermarked audio files or a hole track watermarked by a plugin or new software that can detect it such as the FL Studio's Harmony plugin [not that Im freely promoting any plugins here]. Also, its a good idea watermarking audio files, if it wasn't, it would not exist but, then again, there are also people out there who would like to pay for bad ideas like good ones out aren't there in the world today.
NOTE: Im not a sound professor XD

Regards,
F.Yildirim

 

Ever heard of Flattr, Jamendo, Bandcamp or Bitcoin?

 

ADC/DAC - that's what the article on wikipedia, nothing related to watermarking...

instead that, read this:

2) NEVER deal with RF sites that fingerprint or trace your music.
here is a lil story . A good friend of mine , a composer that also sells the same tracks all over the place was banned from a pretty profitable site 2 weeks ago , because a client bought a track from that site , put it under his youtube video and his youtube account was blocked for a few days because of copyright infringement ..
this is what happened .. my friend uploaded his 100 tracks to a whole bunch of royaltyfree sites (non exclusively) .. and one company called audiomicro (without his consent) fingerprinted his tracks through a company called "go digital" in order to make extra royalties from plays on youtube .. but since my friend is selling the same tracks all over the place it created problems , cuz people that bought the same track from any other place other than audiomicro were told that they are using the music illegally and that its copyrighted by audiomicro. Basically he was kicked out and threatened to get sued from a couple of good sites . thank god he figured out that by pitching the tracks up or down a semitone bypasses the godigital system , im any case YOUR FIRST Question to RF companies should be to you use Godigtal or similar services to track music .. if yes , avoid them

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-picture/503747-royalty-free-libraries-good-idea.html?highlight=royalty+free+libraries

So, watermarking works!!! No matter we like it or not, it's not just exists, it works (and sometimes, works bad for musicians)!

 

That was what I was referring to.

ones and zeros of digital audio are not related to code you can see with a hex editor.
That's why I recommended to read about the basics of analog/digital conversion.

What you described with that story is fingerprinting. It's written there numerous times. Why do you come to the conclusion that watermarking works after describing fingerprinting? Fingerprinting is not watermarking.
Yes, fingerprinting works. It's absolutely wide spread and no rocketscience. And it's been around for ages. You can see that by the fact that the story you copied from gearslutz.com was posted over four years ago.

Watermarking in our context is best described with voodoo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_watermarking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint_%28computing%29

 

So, now all my assumptions about watermarking in audio files are confirmed...

people already don't suggest, but directly show this theme as a real:

http://audiosex.pro/index.php?/topic/16205-which-sample-libraries-made-for-kontakt-are-watermarked/page__p__106950__fromsearch__1#entry106950

nobody even doubts if WM exists or not, they just discuss, which libraries have the WM on their body and which don't.

So, again the question is to detect, to edit, and to delete WM

Any thoughts?

 

No, nothing is confirmed.
Somebody else stating "xy does it" and "az is watermarked" does not confirm anything.
And even if there would be a watermark hidden in a single sample - it simply is not possible to filter that out from a rendered track.

 

Really? You had better to ask that man:

Horsemen Posted 23 May 2015 - 01:53 AM (#14)

http://audiosex.pro/index.php?/topic/16205-which-sample-libraries-made-for-kontakt-are-watermarked/page__p__106950__fromsearch__1#entry106950

 

That was not deconstructed from within a complete song and that's what you're worried about, right?

 

Found a new one:

JOVA is FATdrop's original watermarking technology. If you use JOVA, a unique code is automatically injected into each of your downloaded tracks. This identifies who downloaded it. The code doesn't affect the music file in any way and the downloader/listener won't know it's there unless you tell them.


http://www.fatdrop.co.uk/faq/what_is_FATdrop_watermarking_and_how_does_it_work_How_much_does_it_cost

...and more:

http://www.mediadisc.co.uk/audio-services.html

 

Last edited: Jul 26, 2015

Hi Guys
Interesting discussion.
Now if you really want to understand this here is a youtube video. This is by the god of audio Barry Blesser. For those that dont know who he is here is brief outline. He invented the first digital reverb the EMT 250. He then went on started a company called Lexicon. Then he made a few more great reverbs. After he sold Lexicon he became head of the AES. He is now one of the inventors of watermaking. Good luck understanding this video.
Spencer Lee

 

Dang.

 

Watermarking, if really exists, only survives in the digital world.
If you have a decent AD-DA converter in your audio interfaceall you need to do is to get your audio file out of digital and back in again.
All digital codes, watermarks (if any) and tags (and whatever is not analogue sound) will be gone.