i really hope someone here is an expert in recording acoustic guitar because it s driving me mad.
I m rying to record a fingerstyle guitar track and it needs to be as clean as possible,unfortunately the environment where i record doesn t allow me to have the silence i need,expecially the cpu fan is a pain in the ass.if i had to do several overdubs on many guitar parts i could hide it somehow in the mix,but this is a single part.
SO i describe the problem in detail:
I use PT le 8.0.4 with an mbox mini,i record the signal of my guitar with a directional condenser mic going to the first input and i plug the guitar to the second imputto pick up the sound directly from the piezo(i keep this second imput very low,it s gonna be used just as an enhancement in some points)
Now,if i set the miced imput level to the point the meter gets to "0" in the fader display,the bckground noise is too audible,if i lower the imput then i have to abuse of the normalize plugin and the problem is back.
I tried to fix this problem experimenting seevral possible solutions:
i recorded a track with only the background noise,i recorded another track with the guitar part,i inverted the phase of the noise only track hoping this would cancel the noise leaving the guitar part clean.
It didn t work,probably the frequencies of the background noise are too random and don t collinde with the noise on the other track so there s no cancellation at all.
Since this experiment faild to give results,i simply recorded my guitar track trying to erase the noise with izotope xnoise,but it would cancel also some important frequencies,and if i lowered the level of the effect the result wouldn t give useful results.
Yesterday,i made the last experiment recording the same thing on 2 different track and inverted the phase of one track,slightly changing its volume in order of having just the portion of unwanted noise reduced.
THis seems the best compromise so far,but the price to pay for it is an important loss of volume.
Should i just bounce both tracks on a new one and normalize?
Any intelligent hint woill be appreciated
thanks
P.S with intelligent hint i mean i wont consider those who will start weening about the use of PT and to change sequencer,this is not the topic,so go to fight your sequencer wars elsewhere

 

what i did once if i remember correctly was i used a noise gate and then messed with the frequencies.

 

thanks biohazardhero,i tired with the noise gate,it can give some help depending on the amout of effect u use,nut i think the proble has to be fixed before recording setting up properly the equipment,maybe using some effect during the recording session rather than editing the track when the damage is made

 

If you want a pristine clear ac. gtr sound (or any other instrument, really) you must record the best possible sound "at source".
Doing a bad recording thinking you can "fix-it" later won't work. Never!
If the PC noise is too loud you can/should (cheap temporary solutions no-cost involved):

-Get a couple of thick blankets and, just before you hit "REC", cover up the whole PC case. This will bring down the noise quite a bit. The PC heat will go up but you will be doing it only for the amount of time needed to record the guitar part (5 mins?) so it should not be a problem.

Another couple of blankets can be "mounted" around the recording spot, creating a "boxed" enviroment.

-You will (obviously) place the recording microphone as far from the PC as possible with the mic head pointing away from the PC.

Let's talk about this microphone of yours...
What do you mean by "directional"?
Condenser pencil microphone (cardioid polar pattern) are usually the norm for ac. gtr (large d. are also used if pencil is not available). Knowing the precise make and model of your microphone would be useful.

In any case.. in order to avoid picking up unwanted noise, the mic needs to be quite close to the guitar (15 to 40 cm) before "proximity effects" takes place (boomy sound caused by the mic being too close to the sound's source).

Where exactly you will place the mic depends on many factors.. type of guitar, type of mic, flooring.. surrounding space etc.
As a guide, the two most commonly used placements are:
-1 facing the fretboard at about the 12th fret
-2 facing the guitar body, near the hole (slightly to the left or right) but not pointing at it

For a "most natural" acoustic sound I would avoid the piezo all together BUT..
If your mic/pre is of low quality and the noise is still an issue (I would) forget the microphone and just use the direct signal from the piezo.
For a "pro" recording you will still need a DI box but some/many preamps and soundcards have that option built in. Check that out on your gear.

Some words about your recording settings...

The volume level of the recording (specially if you record at 24bit.. you do, right?) should not be higher than -5db or -6db. This will give you a more than strong enough signal to work with but still plenty of headroom for further "tweaking" if needed at mixing/mastering stage.

My "credentials" on ac. gtr recording? Here http://soundcloud.com/moosegarage/first-fire-on-me
This is an 8 acoustic guitars track I've recorded using 1 SE1a pencil mic (recording level of each guitar was well below -10db)
(the rest of my stuff is also on Soundcloud)

Hope this helps.

Ciao

PS: in relation to PC noise I took a more extreme but ultimately more efficient step... I made a little hole through the wall where my PC desk is and placed the PC at the other side of the wall with all cabling passing through the hole (I am lucky there's just a corridor on the other side of the wall).

 

thanks a lot jay, i think my first mistake was to keep the level of the input signal too loud,i made this mistake because i compared the waveform of my recorded track to the one of an acoustic sample to get an average idea of the volume.
the overheat shouldn t be a problem for a 4 minutes recording so i ll cover the case with blankes as u suggersted.
the mic i use is a pencil cardioid condenser mic,an apx,i don t remember the exact model,but i m pretty sure i got fooled at the store where i bought it,and i keep it rather close to the 12th fret(20 cm's more or less,if i keep it further no normalization would save it.
thanks for the moment,i m listning to your tracks now,very well played and recorded.
this is one o recorded a few months ago,it took a lot of editing to clean it up,maybe one day i ll rerecord it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4GZf31oMiY
thanks again and thanks to black lotus who directed me to u

 

I am glad I could be of help but... "normalization"? What do you mean by that?

Listening to your track now.. Nice playing indeed DiMeola and Forcione spring to mind.. Good work anyway.

Yes, you should re-record it...

 

i mean the normalize track option in the pro tools audio suite to increase the volume,but with your hints i won t need it

 

If the mic tracks are very too noisy and there's nothing you can do, maybe you should try to record only from the piezo then add a cab simulator or impulses.
you can have great results.
But the best is mic + DI.

 

sorry but i can t stand the attack of the piezo,i barely tollerate it during a live performance,i wish i had a Di box,but with JayAr s hints i am rather satisfied at the moment,now i just need to find a way to hold my breath for minutes so the air doen t get in the mic

 

Get yourself a mic-shield. Or even better, make one yourself.
I did.

Take a roundwire cloth-hanger, bend it until is round and small enough not to be in the way.. take (buy/borrow..or one of your old ones?) a pair of women tights and place it on it. Attach it to the mic stand using whatever you like...

@XTA.. "then add a cab simulator or impulses".. that works with el. guitars (bass and k-boards too). Not really a good choice if you are after a true acoustic sound.

 

thanks jay,i look form my stokings so i can build it

 

I like the pillow and blanket solution..... it´s rad but efective.
If you record just the noise and use a bit of x-noise you´ll be able to decently reduce the background noise including nextdoor A/C, fridge and your preamps groundnoise etc..
Cheers

 

usually you should not need a di box for this kind of application. the output impedance of those pickups are usually around average mic so you won't need high impedance. saying that: don't use the pickup (or maybe just for some sparkle in the mix as they usually are rather bright and close to ugly)

regarding the sound. Are you sure it is environment noise or just a bad microphone+preamp. With acoustical instruments I usually try to have a mic with very little noise floor plus a good preamp? I know, it is frustrating to point this out, but go to your next music place and rent some rode m3, SE or MXL or any other sdc mic and maybe a Studio projects vpt-1 . It will definitely improve your recordings.

Other things are if you are fighting with outside noise, noise from your equipment or with echo. In case the computer is the problem I would simply recommend moving blankets and a long cable. You have a bed? put up the mattress to block the sound.

It can be done. Another option is getting a mic screen (it does not have to be the expensive SE) type.

And one more thing... I can't judge right now as I can't properly listen to your track on youtube, but it sounded a little distorted. maybe this is part of your problem. You don't need to brickwall that or even record to 0dB to get a nice sound. The guitar is not competing with other things so you might be a little gentler to make the overall sound better.

opty

[EDIT] It's VTP-1 not VPT-1. sorry

 

Forgive me my friend but that is somehow a contradictive statement.. I don't mean disrespect but...
As you need a preamp to raise a mic signal so you need a DIBox to raise a piezo pickup signal.. the piezo's output signal strength is very much like that of an el. guitar.
And (much like for the el. gtr.) it will ALWAYS sound 100 times better with a DI box than without.
Of course you can do without and go straight into the mixer/soundcard.. you can do that with el. gtr too.. but don't expect good results.

ciao

 

I think that most people, who have a guitar with a built in piezo PU, also have a built in preamp. So the signal will be definitely stronger than that of an el. guitar.

 

the signal can be strongs as u want,the problem is not the signal of the piezo,it s its crappy sound,it can be acceptable for fingrstyle(and i said acceptable,not good)but with a pick the attack it s produces it s simply awful,i still wonder why people like tommy emmanuel plug their guitars in an amp

 

I wasn't talking about the sound, I was referring to this:

The sound of piezo doesn't have to be always bad, in my opinion.
Listen to the live (unplugged) recording of "Hotel California" by the Eagles (on the album "hell freezes over").
I think one really can't say that the guitars sound bad.

But of course it's a different sound than of a miked guitar.

 

well my shadow pickup is said to be lo-z (ie mic impedance) and it is fed to a builtin preamp. as for electric guitar... impedance from those are way higher than average mic. result will be (indeed) dull sound.

there is one device that matches impedance and is a class a preamp. that thing is called bigamp by triton audio.

but as aleays: try it with di and see if the audio improves. if so, don't listen to me ;)

Regarding good or bad piezo sound... If you have more than one channel on your interface I would just go along and record it together with the mic signal and see if it can blend in later. in such a case you might want to check for phase or time lag issues of the mic signal depending on how far your mic is positioned from the guitar (the cable will always be faster). some time alignment might(!) be necessary ooooor you keep the 1 or 2ms of time difference and go for a nice HAAS effect. so many choices.

 

@jayar - First Fire on Me is good. Love it.

What's a DI btw?

I always get a boomy sound when recording acoustic guitar (with a crap mic) - I'll try your advice.

 

Thank you for the compliment.. "First Fire" was an improvised short "thing" just to check out that all 8 channels of my new Focusrite were actually working.
It was late night so I played very quietly into the mic. It turned out nice so I polished it and here it is.

You can make more that decent ac. gtr. recording with a cheap mic.. usually "boomy" means too close to the sound-hole.
The mic should (almost) never point at the gtr. hole (there are exceptions, as always) and (almost) never closer that 10 to 15 cm.
Having said that I once got an interesting "pre-war vinyl record" kind of effect by recording the guitar with a cheap omni placed right inside the guitar... go figure!

A DI Box is a Direct Injection Box. It is (usually) battery powered and it is used to raise the instrument level to "line" level (el. gtr and many piezos produce a much lower output to effectively and efficiently drive a line stage.