Hi folks,

this is more of a thought, a concept, rather than actual workflow,
but I wonder, when producing double bass drum (at fairly high bpm), do you actually use multiple tracks for VSTs or kick drum sampling?

what I mean, if you use for ex. two separate plugin chains as if you were recording actual two kick drums of a drummer?
would you also slightly pan them for more realistic feel? different EQ, compression, even bit different tuned drum or lower velocity/volume of either?
or do you just pick whatever single instance and don't really bother with which hit would drummer play with which leg on which kick drum?

any thoughts? maybe I'm overcomplicating things?

 

Fun fact. While both kicks in double bass are recorded by the same mono microphones, the subtle phase and expression differences prevent the machine gun effect.
If you use a drum sampler, make sure it includes round robins, and cut the tails of the drum kicks a bit for a slightly cleaner result. Or don't, for a slightly more realistic result. Whichever you prefer.
Panning is pointless, as the real acoustic bass drum doesn't pan its sound depending on where you hit, but rather changes its timbre, because the whole membrane is vibrating but in different ways. This is accounted for in a proper drum set-up so both pedals sound the same.
Oh, and as I said, both kick in and kick out microphones are mono, further making panning pointless.

 

Yes.

Yes.

It does not make instruments sound more natural - reverb does

 

Hi @zzzsmk, i would just add the kick drum notes to the piano roll. Maybe adjust the attack and maybe add some BPM delay.

 

you got my point
so, could be more realistic to use two drum samplers (each for one kick drum)?

but would you use two rows (different note for each kick drum) within a piano roll, or separate midi tracks for each kick drum (and just view/overlay multiple midi tracks when arranging)?

 

If you want to emulate a double kick on a live kit the easiest way is to use the same kick twice and detune one just slightly. Usually drummers are trying to make each drum sound exactly the same anyway, but there's always a tiny discrepancy. And pan each just barely off center. In this case yes, you need to program each drum discretely. The non dominant kick only gets used for certain playing patterns so don't overdo it. A lot of Superior drum kits have a discrete 2nd kick in them...
But realistically, it's not generally something a listener is ever going to catch, I wouldn't bother. (And a lot of drummers simply use a double kick drum pedal on a single kick drum which renders the whole thing moot anyway.)

 

Ez drummer automatically alternate left/right kick ... so i don't even think about it
Single track and roll

 

that's still two feet on two pedals with two beaters hitting a drum head at different spot

 

If you look at the double kick drum, also called a base drum, the drummer steps on the double pedal with his right foot and the other pedal with his left foot. The result is that the two drumsticks hit at different times and in sync. I would mark this on a MIDI track in the piano roll.

With multiple tracks, if you edit just one track with compression and EQ etc., it will probably sound muddy later because it is then delayed. As you know, you can then use the volume, EQ etc. to bring a drum track to the front or distribute it to up to 11 different places in the mix (panning).

Then the processed base drum comes from a different corner and that leads to hearing irritation. It also becomes difficult to keep track of everything afterwards.

I have attached one of my self-drawn templates for drum tracks. Base 1 and Base 2 in the example!

Take a look at the time offset and the synchronized drumsticks.

 

Well..... yeah ok but I think at that point it comes down to such a subtle difference it's not worth worrying about

 

At that point I think simply making sure that you have a little bit of variation in velocity with a round robin sample and that you're not getting any machine gun effect is going to give you all the variation you will get in real life at that point.

And in fact if you're going for an older or probably even a more recent metal drum sound chances are they re-triggered all the drums with one shots anyway so it really is much more static and not as dynamic as one would think! In my mind the kind of variation we're talking about here is the sort of thing you would get when recording somebody like, say, Neal Peart who would not have used triggers in the studio, at least not up to the mid 80s or so.

 

Last edited: Oct 30, 2024

nice, nice!
but with more complex stuff, it's not always switching right/left foot consistently, as in example starts (btw amazing track, and drummin') at 1:21 here:

there's paradiddles crazy stuff xD

 

Yes, that's exactly why real bands sound so lively live and on record and not as static as programmed techno, for example. The part from 1:21 onwards is actually mathematics.

The drummer has to stay in time because everyone relies on him. That's why left hand 1 hit on the snare, right hand tom and the left foot and the right foot. So 4 moving beats or beats. You could also run the video slower and count the beats, add the BPM tempo and then do a little math and then transfer that to the piano roll. Max 90 BPM per minute is possible.

Bum Shak Bum Shak Break Bum Shak Bum Shak Pause Drum roll. What kind of techno music do you make?

I started with this book: Drum Programming: A Complete Guide to Program and Think Like A Drummer

This is your complete guide to programming and thinking like a drummer - not a drum machine user. Instead of merely providing instructions for you to program into your machine, this book is a direct, mathematical approach to learning how to drum and how to best emulate a drum kit on a pre-recorded track.

By following this book, you will gain an understanding of the drum kit that takes many drummers years to learn - and that will lead to more realistic programming and better results!

 

I get where you are coming from with this but I think it's not worth the bother, even with sampled drums, unless they're horrifically low in round-robins - in which case, slight randomisation of aspects such as the pitch and tone of each hit are going to make more difference than separate channel processing.

With a live drum, even with a single pedal every hit is going to come out slightly different. The tiniest variation in velocity will affect the way the membrane reacts and consequently the shell.

I've never personally been able to detect an identifiable sound difference between the L or R beater, never mind the spatial information present with a double pedal on a single drum. Certainly, there's an argument for definable differences when two separate physical drums are used, but I wouldn't say spatial information is particularly relevant and if it is then that's for the overheads and stereo room mics to capture.

My approach to two physical drums is to have them on separate tracks but group them and process as a single unit, live or when recording. I'm a little horrified at the idea of panning kicks anywhere but straight down the centre to be honest.

 

For realism, timbre (small variances on each hit) matters less than rhythm IMO. Addictive Drums sounds as realistic as can be and it doesn't really have a ton of round robins. Round robins are most important in rare instances, like some specific drum fills, and above all for snare drums.

As for rhythm, it depends on the genre: for rock, global tempo variations are relevant; for funk, slight, consistent drags and rushes are more relevant (feel, groove). Also, look up rhythm long range correlations to understand better how musicians make subliminal mistakes when playing (DAW humanizer functions use white noise algos). From then on you might dive into the most fun part: pocket science! But for metal I'd say that's not all so relevant.

 

A lot of people would contest that.
Myself included actually. It's really good for electronic music, but with real instruments it sounds artificial no matter how much you humanize it with rhythm and expression.
There's something with its sound.

 

Last edited: Oct 31, 2024

I have done it before and will probably do it again. Also, realism of any sort is immaterial in my art flow.

 

having two kick tracks is great. easier control of dynamics, panning, etc as you noted. Its also fun for effects. bit crush one of them, or hard pan one, LPF, HPF, BPF, automation, reverb, whatever!

 

Here's what I learned after spending two years trying to make programed drums sound "human": hire a good drummer. There are a few guys that will record your tracks in their own studios and send them to you.


And don't replace all of their hits with slate drum samples and make it all sound programmed again.

 

just reverb/room. There is this one Valhalla VintageVerb preset "DrumAir" that I've been using for I think 5 years now. Used to do all those sort of crazy shit in the early days but nowadays it's just compression, obviously phase and reverb/room. The thing that I believe needed total control is the the amount of low end power, make it as short as possible. But it depends on the whole mixing philosophy (taste) I guess, me I never once aiming for realistic feel (used to but not for long) for fast twin pedals/bassdrum kicks, just worrying about their relation with bassline and bottom portion of the palm muted guitars. IMO realistic fast twin kicks sounds sloppy in a way and give bad rep to the drummer if there is one.

Might sound weird, what makes it sounds beautiful is tailoring the spaces between those hits where the notes aren't played, if you know what I mean.