just wondering if any DAWs -or more specifically, MIDI sequencers- allow for change of track/project tempo after MIDI phrase has been recorded, without altering the phrase timing in any way? ...in other words, shifting the bar to match the notes rather than stretching/compressing the notes to match the pre-determined bar.
would require some way of 'unglueing' the recorded MIDI notes from the track, and shifting the bar grid below... then 'reglueing' the notes back to the track when correct tempo is found.

i'm currently using Mulab, but its a bit limited in this regard

reason being, i wish to let a sequencer record in the background, whilst noodling away on the keys, regardless of any particular tempo, and without being tied to a click... then extract any useful phrase-stuff and create bar loops at a tempo determined by the notes themselves.

 

Last edited: Oct 8, 2024

All DAWs I know do this. In midi at least. I use the very first visual midi sequencer, the inventor of the genre: Cubase (I started with pro24 in 1988). VST is actually a trademark of Steinberg.

 

thx, but google searches would suggest this is not such an easy problem to solve.
this is why i throw the question open to info about any DAW that someone may have used in this regard.
what's the specific function of Cubase that allows for this?
i've had Cubase on Atari since 1990, and have various versions for PC,, so i can check it out.
maybe the answer was there all the time, but im not so sure.

 

Last edited: Oct 8, 2024

You can do this easily in Reaper by choosing Time as a timebase.


EDIT: Er, see post #16

 

Last edited: Oct 9, 2024

does this Time option allow midi notes to 'float' above the track?
and.. can you switch in and out of this timebase in order to glue em back to the bar?
sounds ideal.

 

With AUDIO this can be hard as then the sample is locked to the bpm you recorded it at. As example. You use a loop from a sampler that runs at 130 bpm. That is audio ! So when you change tempo then the midi changes in tempo, but the loop keeps playing at 130 bpm. So the audio then floats out of sync with the midi. {Fruity and Ableton i think can sync audio as well. Then the sequencer syncs audio to midi Variable pitch i thought it was named.} But old sequencers do not sync audio to midi during tempo changes. That variable pitch is a more recent technology

BUT when it are only midi commands then the speed the sequencer runs at follows when the midi gets triggered and will thus follow the tempo changes you use in your sequencer. So as said every sequencer should be able to do this, even my ancient logic pc 5.3 can do tempo changes in the sequencer. BUT

IF your making dance music then. please do not do this !
DJ's like me like to play songs together for as long as possible. SO when you use a tempo change in the song then your song becomes useless for mixing. Then your song will run out of sync with the other song that the dj is mixing it together with. And then most times the dj will drop your song and not use it in his mix and then you miss out on the free promotion of your song by having your song used in a mix, that buyers use to search for new songs to buy.

So for dance music that gets mixed i would avoid tempo changes as much as possible. You can do it in the break as example then the dj can work around it. But with Techno i would never do it as techno djs can run 3 tracks at ones and then the tempo change messes up the whole mix and then the dj will hate your song.

When your making dance then your making dj tools so you want to please them not make them drop your songs

THIS is why making 70s disco mixes is so hard !
In the 70s they did not use sequencers like we use now. So then you hear the beat floating around and constantly changing points where snares hit. So then it becomes very hard to play 2 songs together for 3 or more minutes as then the snares do not hit at the exact same moment. So as dj you then constantly need to adjust the pitch as then sync no longer works.

I even ones just dropped such a song in my sequencer and then cut every single beat and then synced every single beat and it even sounded perfect by simply reducing the bpm some bpm down. Then the sample becomes longer and you can delete pops. BUT even if you cut every beat of the audio, when you speed up the bpm then the sample gets shorter and then the song no longer sound good.

SO Audio is the problem related to tempo changes, midi is a trigger that starts when the sequencer reaches it and thus the trigger is activated whenever its reached at whatever tempo. Its the samples that are not integrated within the sequencer that do not sync to the midi. Ones the audio is hosted by the sequencer like with fruity, then the sequencer can have that vati pitch technology and then the sequencer will keep this audio in pitch also when making the song faster.

But it amazed me how far musicians floated away from the metronome. But it is actually that reason why some people like unsynced music more as it sounds less perfect !

SO it depends on what kind of music you want to make !

 

Last edited: Oct 8, 2024

you may be misunderstanding my question.
i don't wish to use audio, and im not talking about making tempo changes during a track playback (which will fckup your dj work).
im asking about possibility of adjusting bar positions beneath locked note data, during editing.

 

So basically you want the events to stay the same time positions, and basically going "off beat" or no longer linked to the grid? You'd have to turn off any Time Quantize features, and also pick correct Snap functions. In Logic, just as an example; you have 3 options for how notes snap to the grid. They can snap to Relative Value, Absolute Value, and Off. You'd have to change those values to the correct one. I would probably put the section of that midi track onto a new track by itself, so that your other sections are not impacted by, or impacting the portion you want to go "off beat".

I've never done it, but I think you could. I think most DAWs will allow you to do something like this, because most of them will allow you to put notes wherever you want, not associated to the grid underneath it. Like you just played the notes in wrong while recording, and they will all let you do that. If you were using Logic I would test it. You might have to Cut the data, unlink it, change the tempo, and then paste back in your notes so they are not re-aligned to grid by Snap value.

You may even have to create another Midi track next to this one, with full measure length notes. Then you could copy both data, with the full measure regions serving as a placeholder.

 

Last edited: Oct 8, 2024

I can see why people got confused reading your responses and re-reading the post above...and there are some good answers, so I looked at this closer another way, because you said they were coming from a different direction more or less...

So I understand this correctly, you have played or written in the MIDI phrase at a specific tempo. Then when you change the tempo, you want everything else to change tempo but have the MIDI you recorded remain in the old tempo. Is that correct?

If so I know only one guaranteed way the MIDI you recorded won't change tempo and you're probably not going to like it. MIDI is reliant on the project tempo in every DAW. You have to bounce the MIDI to audio while in the recorded tempo and either do above in the Reaper post, or in Cubase, do not click the tempo checkbox next to the audio file in the project pool (Ctrl+P) before you change tempo. Each DAW has its own method.
The MIDI file will move, the audio file won't unless it has been told to. The MIDI file will sound unchanged because it is now audio.

Unless the DAW has multiple timing mechanisms within a single project where you can run two or more time-signatures, or two or more bpm pulses simultaneously that are not the same, MIDI is completely reliant on the single project bpm you have set and will change tempo when you change the bpm. Of course, if the DAW has a setting of "MIDI ignores project tempo changes" I know of no other way. But that would need to be per-track.

 

Last edited: Oct 8, 2024

For midi i would simply change the numbers of the trigger moment. Increase or decrease the trigger moment.
OR if i want to put triggers of midi in "phase" then i use delay on the trigger block on my sequencer. That moved all notes, triggers in the midi block at the same amount. I do that with midi and audio because sure thats why i love Logic PC. Thats how you can make your own grooves which is used in beats a lot.

Locked i only see audio fitting as midi is just a trigger position per note or trigger command. Every trigger or note position you can change to where you want it to be triggered. Audio is locked to the bpm it was sampled at.

AND if you do have to do this with audio, then as i said just cut the 70s loop to every beat. Delay the samples to where you want them to play at a different point and you re synced even such old audio sample material.

And not a delay effect on it. But the block on your sequencer ! You move that a bit forward or backward in the bar system by using the delay function on each block. At least in Logic you can and then i bet in most other you can.

So the midi stays in the same point, audio floats and needs or vari pitch or you must cut it at each beat or at the point you want to sync it. Then adjust audio tyming and ready.

So you move the sequencer block if you want to adjust 2 songs that already have the same bpm but where one song is out of phase. Then you adjust the block that represents the out of phase song and move that block a tiny bit forwards or backwards to bring it back in phase matched to the other song. With vocals you can do this a lot to thicken up voices. Play same sample under it move a bit foreward and the voice sounds twice as fat.

IF you played a midi loop and some notes are off timing then you can use QUANTISE. That syncs notes after recording and even during recording. That is the syncing mechanism in a DAW. Id you want to fo off road then adjust positions. In logic 21 up on inbetween points gives a nice groove. Swing 1-4 preset does the groove of note quantise in that way.

If then you want to float away that block then just move block for and backwards

 

Last edited: Oct 8, 2024

yes this is the problem to solve.
i too can see why ppl misunderstand, and answer a question i wasnt asking, coz its a hard question to phrase without there being double meanings... 'change tempo' for instance

i was wondering if i might copy & paste required phrase notes from piano-roll noodling track, into a new clip (with resultant 'wrong tempo')... then shift/expand/contract notes en-bloc to fit predetermined bar/bars, then adjust tempo back to that of the original phrase.
will havta investigate that one.

 

Last edited: Oct 8, 2024

You should specify what DAW you actually want to do this in. Like I mentioned above, this is how you would do it in Logic. Also, in Logic we have what is called Smart Tempo Project Settings on every project. Again 3 mode options, Keep Project Tempo Mode, Adapt Project Tempo Mode, and Automatic Mode. A lot of new users get that working against them when they import samples, causing it to warp or not warp the audio to the correct bpm. Whatever DAW you are going to use should have similar options, just called different things.

 

RTFM

 

I specified i was using MULAB, which doesnt have this feature.
therefore i was asking whether ppl knew of DAWs which actually have this feature.

 

which FM would that be then, smart ass?
if you can't help out, STFU.

 

So, I've tried with various MIDI data (.mid, played) and it seems that in fact it does not work in Reaper! Even though the options are there, the MIDI notes seems to be stuck to the measurement position. Means, if you change the tempo, the tempo of the MIDI notes change accordingly - which I would consider a bug, which would be rather unusual for Reaper.
No problem with audio though.

 

much thanks for checking anyway

 

Do you mean something like this? could be some helpful tips that may help
Create Tempo track from MIDI track on all versions of Cubase

and this also:
Tempo Detection MIDI | Audio Editing and Warping

 

Motu Digital Performer does it as you said. From the nineties for midi and audio
adjust beats p.783 in user guide :
https://motu.com/download-center/download/1790

 

I get that, I meant which DAW you intend to test on. A lot of different software will do the same stuff, and call it whatever term they want. It's why I told you the terms used in Logic for the features/functions I would be looking into equivalents of in other DAW.