Latest version of 12 beta plugin delay compensation seems to actually be working. Im talking about when you have a high latency plugin, and have any plugin after that syncs to tempo (shaperbox, LFO Tool, etc). I havent seen ableton even mention this in their release notes, but its working for me like butter. I did two sessions, one in 11, and one in 12 and it was night and day.

editing -- its not fixed. but it is slightly better. i threw more plugins at it, and yah, same old

 

I thought the Plugin Delay Compensation had worked for a long time already, and the issue was with External Hardware Latency Compensation. Is it just PDC or both?

 

Ableton definitely does not have full PDC. Could it maybe be that each track is PDC'd but not each plugin individually? It's something like that. If you use tempo synced plugins you need to keep them ahead of any high latency plugins on the same channel or things will be out of sync.

 

You mean as an example, the total latency of all plugins on the channel will just be calculated and then playback compensated for that total, as opposed to each latency amount factoring in at each plugin and that audio passed to the next plugin? I don't think that is possible actually. Each plugin has to complete its own processing internally before the audio is sent to the next unit in the chain. It's similar to why lookahead will not work as expected in certain scenarios.

 

This is a huge problem and the reason I stopped 'supporting' Cableguys with the realease of reverbshaper. Simply put it is not the usual PDC for normal plugins but for those that rely on what it's sometimes called transport sync. I personally only know of Shaperbox being affected, but supposedly LFO tool, Devious Machines (?) etc. also suffer.

TL;DR - Shaperbox in Ableton (Logic?) only works as supposed when put on pure audio. If there is another plugin in the chain (even a synth as a source), Shaperbox will be off.

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(from the dev)
Cableguys effects work perfectly in all DAWs when they're the only plugin on a track, but in certain DAWs, including Ableton Live and Apple Logic Pro, they can suffer from latency in other cases – such as when there are several other plugins also on the track, or when used on a group or audio track with other tracks routed to it.

This problem is not caused by Cableguys plugins, but is the result of a PDC (Plugin Delay Compensation) issue within the DAW. Our plugins are synced to the timing information provided by the host DAW, but unfortunately some DAWs don't correctly factor in PDC, so the timing information provided can be wrong. Please feel free to bug the developer of your DAW about this, as this failure to compensate for latency correctly in timeline-synced plugins is as frustrating for us as it is for you. We discussed this with Ableton in 2011 and 2022 with no success, and we encourage anyone affected by the issue to bug them about it.

As a quick workaround, you can use the oscilloscope in your Cableguys plugin to move the wave to the left until the timing matches up again (use the arrow buttons below the wave; SHIFT-click for precise adjustments).

For Ableton Live, a more reliable workaround is to trigger your Cableguys plugin via MIDI or via audio. This has consistently resulted in correct timing in our tests. You can even use one MIDI track to trigger multiple Cableguys plugins.
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Shaperbox should be a precise tool and with all this, it is not. Also, it should speed up the workflow and using 'workarounds' is clumsy. Also I don't feel I should be the one bugging Ableton about it, it is not the cheapest plugin too.

bummer

 

Last edited: Jan 31, 2024

their midi workaround might be fine but you could even bounce-in-place your way around it. You could alternately bypass either the time-based "modulation" portion of the chain, or the others. The latency results of the effects chain probably exceeds the amount of ms/samples within your buffer. You could compare it with the lookahead of a side-chained compressor. It cannot react to something that does not exist yet. Instead you can increase the ratio to infinity to get it to just clamp down as fast as possible.

External instrument and hardware effects latency compensation being wrong, is maybe even worse. It's using round trip ping time to compensate any "print loop" audio out and back from any rack effects, or the time from midi message out and input audio detection back at the interface recording it to do the calculations. If it is wrong, you have to microscope edit, nudge tool, or change the region.

Maybe if enough people nag them, they will fix it in time for you to use on your Greatest Hits album.

 

hello
i have never had any problem with shaperbox + ableton. i usually put it at the end of a chain, but keep in mind i don't really use heavyweight plugins that introduce lots of delay.
is this behaviour observed only when you use heavy stuff before shaperbox?

 

We discussed this with Ableton in 2011 and 2022 with no success.. - Cabledudes
Means, not before 2033..?? anyway, I'm suing both companies for not being double platinum by now

Basically, yes. It depends on the material though. If you're doing some e.g. slow pad filtering, you probably won't notice it. If you're using it as a transient whatever or speedy gate fx, the shift will mess things up. Here is a quick screencap of what you might say is an extreme example (Ableton, then Reaper..)

I consider this plugin(s) as a sound design tool and it would be nice to use it after your synth & crazy chains and experimenting, without having to bounce or setup triggers

 

Well, in many working examples it really comes down to them delivering the possible, if not the perfect. If the scenario you setup in the chain is building a buffer underun kind of situation, there is only so much they can do about it. I think I have possibly noticed this same "problem" in Logic before, by trying to add much cpu-heavier reverb into the chain before a sound design plugin which needs to get the newly affected data from the one before it. Unless you realize your mistake, or do it intentionally for testing; you are almost never going to run into the "problem". Logic's PDC and external hardware latency compensations are "perfect" for all working use of the word. Setup wrong, and it can only do it's mathematical best to make up for the actual source of the problem.

So they treat it like a "bug they can't fix yet" with each pointing the finger at one another. Maybe it is, but I also remember how many update versions Logic went with the "playback delay from bar 1" before they finally fixed it. You could just move the audio back 2 bars and it worked fine, but it was obviously something quite deep in the programming for them to fix. The real problem with such bugs is people who keep testing the same thing saying it isn't fixed. Instead of telling someone that maybe they should just stop doing that, or that it's really caused by their own issue; they keeping saying they just need more time to fix it. " In the next update version" is the audio software version of the check is in the mail. Workarounds are immediate.

 

As I see it, Reaper renders/exports exactly what the user sets up, whereas Ableton does not. And that is Cableguys' argument as I understand it:

Ableton's argument is probably the same old "Live is not your standard DAW bc it's for live use" etc.. I don't know about Logic (was a bit surprised Cableguys having problems with it tbh)

The only thing I don't like about Cableguys' approach is some lack of transparency. While everything is well documented somewhere in their FAQ, this is something they should warn potential buyers on their frontpage (with a list of DAWs with timeline-syncing problems). Meanwhile they are very busy adding/selling new modules and upgrades. And if they really can't fix it, I suppose they could add a more precise method for manually aligning everything, rather than relying on that oscilloscope's 'just move the wave to the left' approach.

The thing is - Ableton is my main DAW, and Shaperbox is a fantastic plugin. I'm just a bit saddened by the fact that these issues most probably won't be resolved in v12 as by the OP..

 

yes. unfortunately, this is still an issue. I was too quick to jump to conclusions in my testing. I put so many high latency plugins on in my test, that it became so latent that it synced back up lol.

This is 100 percent an ableton problem though, not a cableguys problem. Even abletons stock compressor sidechained to a kick is off when placed after a high latency plugin.

 

I've seen this is quite a few situations while using Live and it's pretty ugly. The Ableton devs aint daft though, they've obviously witnessed the problem and we can bet they have seen that Reaper and other DAWs can do a cleaner job. So it's bewildering why this has not been fixed in all these years.

 

You shouldn't be the one bugging Ableton to fix that, but Shaperbox has nothing to do with this. Literally the message you are quoting says so, and I have firsthand experience with this on every 'volume shaping' plugin as well. It's an issue on all of them and to this day (even with 12.0b26) it has not been fixed. But one way to work around this is to use MIDI instead if it's supported (which it is on shaperbox). There are max for live devices for example that can trigger midi from audio and you can send that midi to the shaperbox that's on the same track. It's stupid that we even have to do this, obviously, but that's a fault of Ableton and not shaperbox or other companies that make volumeshapers

 

Wow. Just wow.

The guy blaming Cableguys when they clearly explain what the problem is. And yes. It is possible to do per plugin delay compensation. This is exactly what Bitwig and Reaper do. Ableton Live compensate per track. This is the problem.

And you don’t need to use any 3rd party VST to check this. Autopan is time based expect in live. Add bunch of stock compressors with lookahead enabled and autopan after with 1/8 volume ducking. Turn on metronome. Enjoy broken pdc using only live stock plugins. But I bet you will manage to blame it on Cableguys too…

 

Not sure what you debunked there as no one said about bouncing. It is not what an issue is. Reproduce it very easy.
1. Turn on metronome.
2. Add operator and play any simple wave. Sine.
3. Add autopan and add all the setting in the picture below. Your metronome should line up with sound you hear.
4. Now add bunch of effects inducing latency before autopan. Your sound will be longer in sound with metronome. It’s because latency is not compensated per plugin in ableton and any time based effect like autopan or Shaperbox will be out of phase. In daws like bitwig or reaper pdc works on plugin level so I problem there.

PS: this issue has more mentions online than mention of Darude by sandstorm. Either you in denial or you cannot google. I lean towards 1st variant to be honest…

 

I think you should then use bitwig if you can't fuck right with ableton the right way...

I've been using ableton since 1999 fist beta version and of course it was always meant to be for LIVE PERFORMANCE hence their take on latency management

Get to read the manual from ableton and your sound card and also make sure you have a computer that is clean and healthy

I can Assure that there is a way to make it happen....without some madness... and of course

Why would you put 13 compressor before an auto pan

Instead of creating fucked up ex that never happens in music

Create music and learn to mix it with the daw of your choice

I can mix in all DAW and play around stuff I disklike and make it to my advantage

PeaceR Good luck all...

PS The new button to turn on or off the latency is for when playing live so if you bounce or flatten track there's is no isssue

But when recording it might be always a better way in ableton to use the monitoring from the sound card and unclick the keep latency so the tack is aligned with the metronome after when Mixing put buffer zise and be clever....


and check this out

 

Last edited: Apr 15, 2024

This is one of things where someone knows there is an issue doing things a certain way, have a workaround, but insist on doing it the way there is a problem with anyway. " Can't you just put the auto-pan plugin first?". And they insist on using the method that doesn't work right. You could even just figure out how to do an "auto-pan" effect using no time-based plugins at all, easily. Or you could print the time based effect to a new wave file with just the problem plugin on the channel; then load the rendered bounce up with the 11 compressors you don't even need.

 

Wow. Just wow. Kids didn’t like their little toy called shit.
I showed the example and you treat it like real situation? I just showed you that in ableton time based fx can not go after heavy plugin.
I very much doubt you used ableton in 1999. You weren’t born in 1999 as adults don’t behave like this.
Anyhow. Live n your f up world. Not for me to change your mind.

 

yahhh... this IS an issue in ableton, and they need to fix it.

@clone its not just auto pan, its sidechain compression, as well as any other time based effect, looperator, effectrix, infiltrator etc etc etc. Why you cant just put autopan first?? well, what if you have a reverb before it, and you want autopan to be after it, because thats the sound you want! autopan used as a sort of poor mans sidechain compressor, and not just as autopan, sounds very different depending on where you have it in the chain. Its also not about having 11 compressors. One oversampled saturator, one acustica eq, a handful of various plugins, etc etc, it adds up fast. And not everyone wants to print immediately. i do often, but many times i prefer not to print midi / synth tracks until the very last step.

@muse2love i have been using ableton for a very long time as well. 20 years or so, 15 of those professionally, and i yes, abletons pdc is a problem. as i mentioned to clone above, its not just about having 15 compressors, there are plenty of real world cases where this happens. it happens to me almost daily. I do use other daws, but i prefer to stay within ableton as much as possible, as its where the majority of my creation happens. I would prefer to stay in there all together actually. I create massive amounts of music, sometimes 20+ tracks a week. Full arrangements, with vocals, mixed, mastered, sent out to the publisher or a&r's, its much easier and less time consuming to be able to stay in ableton, as opposed to bouncing all the stems, re-importing etc etc.

@ArticStorm it is a very common issue, and there are many people who have been asking for fix. Its on centercode, and i see it brought up in different forums quite often.

guys, im not trying to start anything, just trying to offer you perspective, as to why many users find this an issue. It becomes a major headache in genres like drum and bass, or any genre with extreme sound design, where you do use a lot of plugins in a chain. I dont consider it an issue with "traditional" music, with basic instrumentation, because you are less likely to be using these time based plugins as the forefront of sound design.