Yes, I meant that, the gain reduction meter.

Back to your method, so what are we looking for here then when trying to adjust the threshold to that "lowest sustained loudness"? The point I mentioned where the reduction meter still not move (-10 in my case), or at this step I should exclude looking at the reduction meter and I should stick to what I saw on the volume meter measured for the lowest sustained loudness (-24)? I tried it myself anyway, if I leave at -10, of course the reduction meter moves as many other higher volume sections occur, however the optimal spot is around -24 indeed, as measured. The sound is more even. But you see this is when I am confused and hardly dependent on the correct steps of methods like yours, because due to the several knobs, there are always more than 1 way to go. In this particular case, I am not sure whether to leave the threshold on a lighter setting (-10) and add a heavier Ratio, maybe near to max, or go for the heavier threshold, and add a lighter ratio. I read what you mentioned about the knobs before, yet in such situations when you need to apply the theory, I am confused. I lack the experience that helps in such cases.

 

ok, see if this makes sense

if you leave the higher threshold, you'd be compressing only the peaks. it maintains the original dynamic for everything that stays below the threshold. you choose this option if you like the dynamics for your bass but sometimes it has some unpleasant spikes in volume, this one you should work with a faster attack setting.

the second option, you'd be compressing the whole wave, making it smaller. this options is better if you think the bass is too dynamic, and you hear it too loud sometimes, other times you simply cant hear it. adjust attack to taste, slower attack for more transients.

the third option is a serial compression, the combination of both methods above

you should try them and see it for yourself which one you like better, that way your ears can learn better how compression works

 

Speaking impartially as possible as a bass player who has heard more bass mixes good and bad than many people have had hot breakfasts... Also because No Avenger and others have already given you the techniques and direction, should you choose to take it onboard...

The version you said that you would like to sound like, has one incredibly obvious difference as a bass player even though it is likely a synth, and that is the second version has a clear and present attack, as well as having shorter length notes, whereas the first one does not.
You could gate the first version and take all the others advice on compression. I do not lean towards that type of sound personally, but I respect that some people do and I know how to get it, even from a real bass.

 

What Lad Impala said.
You can even set a low threshold and then a higher ratio, this is completely fine and acceptable and in fact leads to the most even bass sound.
In this case, you should make the release faster, because a compressor would work pretty much non-stop and it still has to return to neutral so to say between notes.

 

I see. But first of all I would like to get back to your method to clarify what I asked before: when you suggested finding the lowest sustained loudness, and checking the meter when it plays to adjust the threshold accordingly, what was the aim there? You remember I mentioned for me it shows -24 on the meter, but if I set the threshold there (to -24), that setting is already in the zone where the reduction meter will dance, even if only that lowest sustained note is played. Why I am insisting on clarifying this is because there is that approach that the others have also mentioned, but I also learnt about it myself: that you set the compressor in a way that the reduction meter is moving just momentarily, when the peaks come, then back, this way removing only the big jumps in volume, leaving lower stuff untouched. First I assumed you wanted something similar: that is setting the threshold to the volume top of the lowest note, this way reducing any note that is louder, but leaving everything uncompressed that is similarly low like that low note. However in my case that is -10, higher what the meter measures for the lowest note. If I set -24 instead of -10 for the threshold, I also get compression on the lowest note. In my case however this is okay. When I tested both options, at -10 the compression was not that good, but the sweet spot was around -24 indeed. I just don't understand according to what logic did you figure it out you need to set it like that? Listening to the track volume meter instead of the reduction meter in case of the lowest note? This approach seems totally illogical for me to set the threshold to -24, below the volume top of the lowest note, still that is the method that works.

 

Nah. This will do nothing to your bass track cause it's all over the place dynamics-wise and there aren't short bumps of loudness, but rather all notes are of a different loudness. For the same reason, I wanted your compressor to just flatten it out, force it to behave. Bass survives heavy compression uniquely well due to how our perception works. That's why I proposed to go with a clipper instead at first. Cause that bass is gonna be alright.
So it's my idea that a compressor must be active pretty much all the time to do that.
I'm unfamilliar with Logic compressor (being a PC kind of person), but I think it starts compressing the softest note because it has that soft knee I was talking about before. It leaves the result a bit closer to the original, more dynamic and less distorted than hard knee would.

I realize that I might've formulated my previous explanation as something general. That's not the case, it's only applicable to this and similar situations.
You want to learn the fundamentals, what every control means and does, and look at your material and what it needs, and then apply the necessary processing. It comes with experience.

 

Last edited: Feb 29, 2024

Start with fast attack and slow release and exaggerated ratio and release, find groove. Ease off ratio till you find a groove, then ease off threshold till you find a groove. Don't science it up look for beautiful movements

 

If the volume is bouncing around and outta control maybe you could use a gain rider before compression, saturation and all the other stuff.

 

Or just clip the shit out of it LOL

 

I see now, I just wanted to make sure what exactly you wanted with that threshold setting, to avoid going to the wrong direction. But you see now what I meant when I wrote: even if I know what the knobs are for I still do not understand certain things. If it was up to me, I would have done what you did not recommend: check the volume top of the lowest note, set he threshold to -10, and then sitting there and crying because I don't get the good result. I would have never relied on the mixer's volume meter, but only the compression reduction meter: I have learnt something now again.

Anyway, I went though the process as you suggested, the preferred value is -24 on the threshold indeed, I also set the ratio/attack/release as you suggested. I decided to leave the auto release switched off, and did not set the release too long, because that kinda made the bass disappear. The situation now is that the result is quite good, much better than what I could achieve so far. The bass is pleasant to listen to.

There is still one thing I am uncertain about though: you wrote as the end step: "turn on the limiter and set its threshold to the new lowest sustained loudness." -- if neccessary.
Now this is a bit tricky because it is easy to find the lowest sustained note from the track graph, you select that you see as the lowest and replay it to check the volume of that. But if there is anything lower than that volume now after compressing, how do you spot that? You see this bass is so fast, the meter is jumping all the time, it is difficult to spot anything like that, and on the track graph the compressor's effect doesn't appear. I thought of re-recording the graph into a new tack with the compressor on, so I can see the new graph and find that low spot in the compressed signal. But isn't there an easier method to do this?

 

Yeah. Switch the gain reduction meter to the graph view ^_^
Actually, you can just rely on the limiter's work indication. That red light next to the label. If the bass is too dynamic after compression, turn the limiter on and lower the threshold until you, first, see the red light (if it doesn't work even at the lowest threshold - add ssome more make-up gain) and, second, hear the result. Switch the distortion types and listen to what *that* does as well. I'm unsure myself, the labelling is a little weird.
Anyways, this is an optional step that would flatten the volume further. Use it if you deem necessary. You can just go with compression in series, or with something else entirely.

 

eq-> saturate ->compress. i would use the P455 MDN. cut top end, healthy dose of saturation, 8-10db GR compression

 

Last edited: Feb 29, 2024

@vuldegger Curious, why you saturate before compressing?

 

Thanks! I think this way the bass will be fine for a bunch of tracks with this approach, it is way better now than what I could achieve alone so far.

By the way, how is that Clipper method? What plugin do you need for that? I never heard of controlling dynamics that way. I just want to know how that method goes. Maybe it will be useful sometime in the future.

 

maybe the signal chain is eq->comp->saturation i dunno. my workflow order is eq-saturate-comp.

 

I mentioned it here:

A clipper just puts everything above the threshold to the threshold's level. Equivalent to a compressor with instantaneous attack and release and infinite ratio.
A soft clipper has a soft knee. A soft clipper that has a fixed threshold and input gain amplifier (known as a "drive" knob) is called a saturator. Yes, your saturators and distortion effects compress the sound. And your compressor, if it's fast enough, can distort a sound.
Due to attack and release being instantaneous, a clipper distorts the signal, more specifically it creates higher order harmonics and intermodulation. I would not go into details right now, but intermodulation happens when two or more sounds are clipped together and it can sound nasty if the sounds are harmonically unrelated, while higher order harmonics are multiples of a fundamental frequency and thus "in tune" with what's being clipped, but only purely happen with sine waves. Don't pay too much attention to these details right now, I'm tired, my English is leaving me and they won't change your workflow anyways.
A bass sound would have both if clipped, but manageable. Intermodulations between harmonics produce effectively more harmonics.

 

Last edited: Feb 29, 2024

Yeah, your workflow is what I'm curious about.

 

This Clipper plugin, it is actually a limiter, isn't it? Or if not, how is it different from them?

 

Good eye!
The difference is that limiters do have attack and release (sometimes just slew rate) under the hood to minimize distortion, a few even give the user some control over them instead of relying purely on what timings algorithms decide. So it's not only about infinite ratio. Also I'm unaware of any soft knee limiters.
This means, limiters can pump, while clippers do not. This is why, at the end of the mix bus, when mixing loud, you first use a clipper to cut the drum peaks and then use a limiter to compress the rest, otherwise drum peaks will cause too much pumping (realized that I never specified what pumping is, it's signal ducking right after a peak in an unmusical fashion, caused by gain reduction returning to neutral during release). Some limiters are better than others in this regard. For example, I couldn't make FabFilter's Pro-L 2 Aggressive mode to pump even when I tried.
Oh, and you can actually use a limiter on that bass as well! Or in any scenario where you would use a clipper for dynamics control, if you think a little pumping is more tolerable than a little distortion.

 

Last edited: Mar 1, 2024

Also, Lois Lane mentioned gain rider. What is it.
It's yet another way to control dynamics. You specify the loudness you want, and the plugin tries to match it. To bring up quieter parts and tone down louder parts. Also has attack and release, and sometimes upper and lower adjustment borders.