This is an online link that may be useful to many people.

In SHORT - It basically analyses your master and tells you what is not going to be there on some streaming sites and basically what will change and importantly, whether many major sites will reject your master. It's here so anyone that might find it useful can bookmark it if they do.
Cheers

https://www.loudnesspenalty.com

Why they think some people would use lossy compression by using MP3 on an official master is beyond me other than faster upload times, but you can choose MP3 if you are not using proper mastered lossless files. I guess if all people do is listen on a phone or an iPad, I suppose quality other than clarity is unimportant.

 

it's completely useless. Ian Sheperd is so obsessed with that shit, he forgot that loudness is not simply loudness, but is mainly the density of the song.

You can't have a dense song without being loud. Loudness is a consequence of density.

And dense songs hold very well even when they're turned down 6 dB. At very very low volume (think ambiental listening) a dense mix will still deliver all the details in the song, from the subs to the top end. The more dynamic mixes will deliver just the vocals and few other elements.

Do what sounds good, forget about this loudness shit

 

Honestly, I do not give a shit.
This is a helper thread for SOME people who like to be at the mercy of streamers and actually believe they can make money from it. . I do not stream and am not held to ransom like too many people. if you read it correctly, the main function is for streamers who do not want their masters to be rejected by all the major streaming services.

 

I'm pretty sure loudness is a function of amplitude. Density is a function of the listener, in my experience...

https://lambdageeks.com/loudness-and-amplitude/

 

They're right in their own way, "loudness output" (or playback) is primarily a function of amplitude but perceived loudness in audio is (among other things) a function of mass over volume, which means density. Meaning you can have a mix with objectively louder playback sounding quieter than another mix with a quieter playback output but higher density content.

That being said, I wouldn't actually use Loudness Penalty to decide on how loud I want my master to be, that would be silly, but it can actually be a useful tool to deliberate over other particular aspects regarding streaming playback and upload.

 

It is fine for any person mixing to say "As long as it sounds good". I do not stream and that philosophy is exactly what is valid in that scenario. For people who are wishing to stream their music, it is irrelevant what any perception is of their own. It is the perception of what the streaming services want as their only goal if that is all they intend to do.
You are right but unfortunately, being right means zilch with streaming services who have notably destroyed good mixes with some horrible readjustments.

 

No streaming service will reject mixes. If is too loud, it gets turned down via gain. If is too quiet is turned up via gain up to -1 dB TP. Some services (Spotify, probably others), will also apply limiting for the songs are too quiet. They will never apply limiting for songs that are too loud. It is way more riskier to actually provide a quiet master, than a loud one

 

Yes, everything lxfsn said is correct.
The consequence out of this cognition is also that there is fundamentally seen no loudness war, but a density war. Under this aspect the whole subject has to be seen from a different angle.

Yeah, in my opinion it's not really relevant as well. Even though I do not make anything really dense, because it just does not sound good to me most of the time.

 

Last edited: Jan 9, 2024

Thanks for putting into proper scientific words something I could not. Exactly this is the idea

 

Sheesh who gives a shit about the technicalities. It is designed to help people who stream meet the streamers specifications.
If people wish to dump a plethora of superfluous and esoteric rhetoric on a SIMPLE help link for the people who stream it is pathetic.

If people really wanted to be helpful instead of being a pack of smartasses they'd put up a BETTER link TO HELP OTHERS. You do not look smart, just unnecessary negativity assuming me and others have no idea. Put up a better link then. Do not assume. TRY TO HELP OTHERS instead of swiping testosterone everywhere.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2024

Apparently you give a shit about technicalities. You literally posted a site that is just crunching numbers, while completely disregarding the qualitative aspect of music

Again, it doesnt matter how much a song will be turned down, it will still sound better than the same sound having density sacrificed for the sake of Spotify's guidelines.

Try it with youtube, it normalizes at -14. See how a -8 LUFS (in chorus) mix sounds versus the same mix at -14 LUFS (in chorus).

Then come back with the findings, share them, and mention how helpful is the loudness penalty website

Just sharing stuff because you think is helpful, is not really helpful. Especially on this topic that can be really confusing for people.

In dance music -10 LUFS is the starting point - that's the loudness of a kick peaking at 0 FS. There are entire threads on reddit on how to expand a dance mix from -10 to -14 to "optimize" it for streaming.

The confusion on this topic is at an all time high when in reality loudness penalty doesn't matter. Here's the link: www.loudnesspenaltydoesntmatter.com

 

Quote the link
"Find out if your music will be turned down by YouTube, Spotify, TIDAL, Apple Music and more."

Tell them not me .

I make quality music which is why I do not stream. I gave a shit about the people I know who do stream. Most of the people who know me here know I do care and do make quality music with real instruments. But think whatever because you assume a lot.
Try helping them instead and post a better link and if you cannot then that speaks volumes. Anyone can crap on something and most of the time it is people who have nothing better to offer. This is a HELPER thread so help others with a similar site that does work where they do not need to know about RMS, LUFS, Peak or any other part of loudness.

- Not a loudness penalty site FFS - Designed for people who just want to get their music out there and there are almost as many of them as there unemployed engineers who cannot get a gig and there's plenty of them on here.

A smart approach would have been to simply say "This site does what your link falls short on" and not post a non-loudness wars BS link that tests, post for non-engineers.
Now THAT would have been helpful not a loudness argument.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2024

This argument gets rehashed all the time, and is completely pointless. There's one way to see who's right and who's not - what LUFS do your favourite tracks have, even on Spotify. I make pop, sometimes dance pop, sometimes pop-rock etc. My favourite modern pop tracks are as high as -5LUFS!!! They are rarely below -7. These are short term measurements in chorus, not integrated, but still. If I make mine -14, it's gonna sound like shit. If I make it even -9 it's gonna sound very different (worse imo) in dynamics from my reference tracks. You can debate right or wrong all you like, but just go and look what the pros are doing and then decide for yourself. By all means you can do what you want, especially if you're not aiming for that aesthetic at all, or if you think they're genuinely wrong, but arguing about right or wrong while ignoring the current meta is pointless.

 

I have kinda been doing it a long time. Maybe ask NoAvenger. I did Pop music 30 years ago and the shit I hear now is not worth pissing on. You have to search and sift through 10,000 tunes to find one good one.
Pop music = quality? Most of it is 3 chord crap and garbage. I play and have for a long time and use real instruments and real players. you sound like a computer guy pretending he's a musician. Most Pop musicians would not know quality if it stepped on them, Perfect example Esperanza Spalding kicking Justin Bieber to the curb at the Grammy's when the Grammy's were still worth something. Pop musicians have a limited lifespan.

 

From https://support.spotify.com/us/artists/article/loudness-normalization/
Example: If a track loudness level is -20 dB LUFS, and its True Peak maximum is -5 dB FS, we only lift the track up to -16 dB LUFS.

No limiter mentioned. Where do you have your info from, please?

 

Honestly, I've no clue what this hassle here is all about. OP linked a site where everyone who wants to can make some measurements/tests regarding a possible loudness penalty. Nothing more, nothing less. No one forces anyone to adjust his tracks according to any standard or in any direction. If you're interested in this, good, if not, also good so, where's the problem?

Ok, there's one point I haven't heard of before

Based on what, loudness (too low, too loud) or quality (too bad, too good )?

 

I was going to start a thread similar to this, but more related to final output volume and True Peak, not so much LUFS.

For streaming I would argue getting your TP level correct is much more important than LUFS or any loudness reduction that may be done by streaming for exceeding their suggestions. Every streaming service has its own suggestions.

If your mixes are loud and dense I think it is best to have some headroom in your final export, so you do not introduce any junk in your signal after it has been converted for streaming. Somewhere around -2 dBFS (no TP). Or does none of that matter and just export final master to -0.2 dBFS?

There are some "professional" songs on streaming that have +4 dB TP after conversion so it is hard to say what is the right practice.

 

A mastering engineer that sent some acoustic music at lower LUFS - as per client request and as they together saw fit for the music, and the Spotify version was limited (no issues on Aplle and Tidal). I can't find the conversation anymore, it was a couple of years ago. Maybe they (Spotify) changed their policy meanwhile.

 

Would you upload some short of creation to a web server before it is published?

This tool should work offline. Thanks for sharing the tool, but I wont use it. Not online.

Also an iphone can stream music to a huge hifi system, it's speakers are limited, but his data stream should be as good as any other computer.

 

Last edited: Jan 9, 2024

theres also a plugin version, no need to use the website, just buy the plugin.