All these problems have arisen from mixing extra notes in the major scale.

 

Tonic chord in the key of C is CMaj chord. The CMaj chord in the key of F is dominant chord. It depends in which key you're progressing. G7 in no key can be tonic.

 

What happens when a troll like Foster discovers ChatGPT and swallow every answer indiscriminately lol

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_seventh_chord

 

I guess there is a miscommunication here. I wasn't laughing at you. And, yes, I know what a dominant (or dominant7th) chord is: LOL

I just thought that it was funny in relation to MMj's posts. Since both of us have diffculty in seeing how/why dominant chords can be tonic or have tonal functions. So yes, the only way for G7 to be the tonic is to be in no key whatsovever. That's what I found funny - of course, in that context (no key) anything can be anything. Anyway, hope this clears things up. It's all good man!

 

That is not incorrect, but it's not completely correct either. Using Wikipedia as a source which is dismissed in all academia as tertiary level credibility (3rd) because anyone can add to it, is no guarantee of accuracy.

A G7 in a blues can be a tonic yes but the issue you failed to include is that it also depends on the key signature the composer has based their tune upon. If the key signature was B minor, Cmajor, C minor and other keys the G7 then becomes more related to the accompanying scale and key signature, whether harmonic, major, melodic and even diminshed. Key signatures often give insight into the composer's intent. A Cmajor triad which is what I am reading you as saying without any 7th attached is also not necessarily the dominant without the Bb in it. Theoretically, that's not wrong, but if the next chord was a Gmajor triad (also with no 7th) that tends to point back to C major... It is all about choices FOSTER.

A Bminor blues for example, can have as one of many turnarounds, G7, F#7, back to B minor. ALL about choice.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2023

I knew that. I just posted it to MMJ to see what additional notes do to diatonic keys.

 

Is Blues a right scale.

Cmaj is a dominant chord in the key of F, whether 7th attached to it or not.

I don't know exactly what you mean by this but if you're talking about C7 or G7, neither C7 nor G7 can progress to Gmaj chord.

 

You did not mention the 7th YOU: "Tonic chord in the key of C is CMaj chord. The CMaj chord in the key of F is dominant chord. It depends in which key you're progressing. G7 in no key can be tonic."

At no point do you say C7 and G7 can be a tonic in a G blues - you even said a blues scale which if you knew as much instead of attempting discombobulation, you'd know that a blues scale is also not the only option in a blues... look up what Parker, Satchmo, Coltrane and a pile of others did in a blues, even in rock, Hendrix and others. Playing only a blues scale all the time is uninteresting. Also depending on the composer and tune, a chord progression can go wherever it wants to if the composer hears it. There are too many tunes out there to prove you completely wrong. You obviously want to cause problems Foster so keep it up... I am sure they'll find your IP address again and ban and block you....again.

 

If a chord can go anywhere it wants, then what is the point of this thread?

 

What? 90% of modern popular music is based on blues harmony, and you ask if blues is a right scale?
Please, lean what is a genre, and what is a scale, then culture yourself about music history.
I wonder if you do this on purpose or if you are as stupid as you are depicting yourself...
Anyway, enough is enough.

 

You are truly what people say you are FOSTER and you have proven it countless times with idiocy. If you knew the slightest thing about composing, you would grasp that while knowing the theory is important to understand chord-scale relationships, there are wonderful tunes out in the world that follow no theoretical logic, and they would not be the same if someone applied your robotic idiocy to it. The thing is, you know neither the theory or the slightest concept of voice-leading, substitution or reharmonization. Keep going, sooner or later they will ban you again. With any luck, sooner.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2023

OK, let it go now, he's got banned...

 

wonderful that you having good experiances my friend, because the sound of these things are what the information is about!

now, let's look at this particular context you are describing....

"
tonic -> C in the bass with 2&4 drop voicing = CF#DA (D7) - this is the one I chose
dominant -> G in the bass, again, 2&4 drop voicing = FBGD (G7) - this is the one I chose"

in this particular case of using a more colorful Tonic with extensions, you want to create a Dominant Voicing more tense as well!
* Ambiguity is also possibile but most of the time you want your dominant voicing tension to match the rest of the context!

tonic.../..dominant...../...tonic../..tonic
CADF#B/..D#G#C#FA#.../...GCEA/...EACG
while the bass
CDEG....G#BFC#.........CEGB........CEGA


* you want your increase in tension to be proportional
mostly you don't want to be deliberately obtuse or ambuigious because don't forget , it is the sound of the music you are creating that we are talking about with this information! so you don't want to create the music to sound bad (just like if you ignored theory all together and just built sound from scratch you would work to make it sound good...
understanding and practicing harmony is no different , you don't want to intentionally make it sound bad!

 

" the tonic function really is playing the role of a dominant chord"

this is a nonsensical sentence.
the Function is the deepest level of meaning
chords are just surface level structures to
represent the function.
a function cannot play a ROLE of a chord it is direct opposite.
CHORDS play a role to the function.

(A chord is JUST a note collection)
example D7 D,F#,A,C

that is the entire set of information.
the chord symbol name (D7)
then the information the collection of notes the symbol represents.
D,F#,A,C

you could literally NEVER use the shortcut chord name and instead jsut say the notes directly and nothing would change!
you can say
1.(D7)
or you can say
2. "the combination of notes D,F#,A,C)

they are identical...


" a dominant chord" means a maj 3rd and minor 7th
R357 ( meaning the word dominant in the chord name is denoting relationship of the 7th interval)
DF#AC is a dominant CHORD because the C note is flat

NOT to be CONFUSED with DOMINANT FUNCTION which is
a layer deeper than chords, because a function is what a chord MEANS...


I just seen this message after i already explained above why this isn't "the right" way to think about it.
(you certainly can always do what you want but i am communicating something to you..)
you don't want to write or create music intentionally obtuse, in other words you are not trying to compose to where the music sounds like it is incorrect *except at times when you DO want that haha think horror soundtrack lol :D*

so, what you want to pay attention to is that
(D7) is a chord symbol
it exists in the KEY of C major as upper extensions .

however , (D7) appears in the KEY of G major as the Dominant function.

upper extensions appear and behave in a particular way because of what they are.
upper extensions are a way to add color , just like in audio production
adding harmonics let's say tube distortion is a way to add color
( more information in harmonics , overtones)

so , in music production you WOULDN'T take a vocal line and put heavy distortion on the second to last word of the bar , then play it back to your teacher who just gave a lesson on adding overtone texture to audio with tube harmonics...
* then try to present that as some type of argument that their lesson was wrong! lol hahaha

They would tell you that you are being intentionally obtuse by making one word stand out with distortion static and out of place while the rest of the vocal bar is clean.

instead, you would intentially create a example of what the teacher described by putting a tube preamp gain harmonics on the entire bar and where the transient response of the consonants of the vocals just get clipped by about 3db or 2db ( tube compression and harmonic overtones)

so Context is everything!

now, back to OUR specific context :D

step 1 is your KEY (C major)

the upper extensions behave as color.
so remember the functions are the deepest level of meaning.

the functional blueprint is what the chords are representing.

in this case...

step 2
(Tonic)/(Dominant)/(Tonic

step 3 is where we plug in upper extensions into the tonic function..

(tonic)/(dominant)/(tonic)

tonic.../
CADF#B/


while the bass
CDEG....

we take a D6 drop2 voicing and put a C in the bass of the chord for 1 bar

*meanwhile our bass instrument plays walking bass of
C,D,E,G
*notice the bass spells just ordinary R on string beat
D on weak beat (9th of Cmajor)
E (3rd) on strong beat
G on weakbeat

the combination of our chord voicing and bassline "spell" a (Cmaj13#11)

so before we write our dominant function part next, summarize our situation up to here...

we are establishing tension in the tonic with the color of (Cmaj13#11)

we want we we write for our Dominant function to fit the context
you would only ever use (GBDF) as a dominant voicing if your tonic is plain (CEG)
*the tension of that dominant function matches the consonance of the tonic triad*

so, looking at our context here we are using one the most tense options of a tonic function with a strong amount of color

so..
1. we want our Dominant function part to match that intensity tension level set
2. we want to make musical sense in how the music is behaving and moving
3. we want it to sound good and feel good

tonic.../..dominant.....
CADF#B/..D#G#C#FA#...
while the bass
CDEG....G#BFC#.......

we take our top 4 notes of drop2 D6 (ADF#B) and we mve down halfstep to creating leading tones
A moves to G#..(G# is b9th of G7
D moves to C#..(C# is #11th of G7
F# moves to F..(F is 7th of G&
B moves to A#..(A# is #9th of G7

next, our C note of the chord moves up a min3rd to D# with contrary motion

next , let's see how our bass works
while the bass
CDEG....G#BFC#.......

the G of C maj creates leading tone to G#
G# on strong beat
up to B on weak beat
up to F on strong beat
down to C# on weak beat

we have created a strong powerful movement where the tension of the tonic with extensions
builds to an increasingly tension dominant function!

next, we resolve this domiant function to a tonic !

tonic.../..dominant...../...tonic../..tonic
CADF#B/..D#G#C#FA#.../...GCEA/...EGCG
while the bass
CDEG....G#BFC#.........CEGB........CEGB

we take the upper 4 notes of our dominant function
and these create powerful resolution releasing the energy in motion!
G# (b9th of G7) resolves to G (5th of C maj)
C# (#11th of G7) resolves to C (root of C maj)
F (7th of G7) resolves to E (3rd of C major)
A# (#9th of G7) resolves to A (6th of C major)

our bass simply spells the C major but the leading tone B on weak beat sets up the next tonic function

* the ending tonic chord is pure C maj triad bringing clarity to the entire progression.

KEY of C major
functional blueprint of
(tonic)/(Dominant)/(tonic)/(tonic)
compare the exact progression above as indicated ..
directly to a basic

(tonic)/(Dominant)/(tonic)/(tonic)
CEG......GBD.........CEG.....CEG

play those 2 progressions back to back in a loop *make sure to voice the 2nd plain progression with the notes near our first progression so in comparision you can compare the sound and emotional response you get from both directly!

 

Last edited: Dec 7, 2023

Hey MMJ2024,

Thanks for your feedback and your answers here. Much appreciated!

Also, I wasn't intentionally trying to prove you wrong (not at all), just wanted to see how far things can be pushed before starting to become too vague/ambiguous - so, yes, I do agree that I took a rather "questionable choice" of chords/progression

 

Last edited: Dec 7, 2023

just to point out the obvious...

one HAS to be able to naviagate just the basics of Functional harmony
using the diatonic scale and diatonic chords in a KEY in all the most basic ordinary ways
to create melody, rhythm , harmony...
BEFORE moving on to intermediate and advanced and expert level harmony!

i will provide a simple example here.

the KEY of C major
C D E F G A B C

1.CEG...Cmaj TONIC
2.DFA....Dmin SUBDOMINANT
3.EGB....EMIN TONIC
4.FAC.....SUBDOMINANT
5.GBD.....DOMINANT
6.ACE.....TONIC
7.BDF......DOMINANT

step 1 most basic beginner..

play the scale forward and backwards
C>*D>*E>*F>*G>*A>*B>*C
C<*B<*A<*G<*F<*E<*D<*C

step 2 ( remember most basic level of a key center still....)

attach the Triad to each note of the scale.

C>E>G***D>F>A***E>G>B***F>A>C***G>B>D***A>C>E***B>D>F***C>E>G

step 2 here is barely any different than step 1 it is just the next expansion.

step 3 same thing still basic and just an expansion..!
for step 3 play the first triad forwards the next triad backwards ASCENDING

C>E>G***A<F<D***E>G>B***C<A<F***G>B>D>***E<C<A***B>D>F***G<E<C

step 4 still the basic information and just an expansion of previous step!...
for step 4 play the first triad backwards the next one forwards ASCENDING
G<E<C***D>F>A***B<G<E***F>A>C***D<B<G***A>C>E***F<D<B***C>E>G

step 5 play the first triad forwards the next triads backwards but DESCENDING
C>E>G***F<D<B***A>C>E***D<B<G***F>A>C***D<G<E***D>F>A***G<E<C***

step 6 play the first triad backwards the next triads forwards DESCENDING
G<E<C***B>D>F***E<C<A***G>B>D***C<A<F***E>G>B***A>F>D***C>E>G***

step 7 play the first triad forwards next triad backwards with grace note as leading tone creating an even 4/4
ASCENDING

C>E>G>G# ***A<F<D>D# ***E>G>B>C# ***C<A<F>F# ***G>B>D>D# ***E<C<A>A# ***B>D>F>F# *** G<E<C<B

^loop that above for 15 mins playing it!

step 8 play the first triad backwards the next forwards with grace notes as leading tones creating an even 4/4
ASCENDING

G<E<C>C# ***D>F>A>A# ***B<G<E>F# ***F>A>C>C# ***D<B<G>G# ***A>C>E>F# ***F<D<B>C# ***C>E>G>G#

step 9 play the first triad forwards the next triad backwards with grace notes as leading tone creating even 4/4
DESCENDING

C>E>G<F# ***F<D<B<A# ***A>C>E<D# ***D<B<G<F# ***F>A>C<A# ***B<G<E<D# ***D>F>A<G# ***G<E<C<B ***

step 10 final step
play the first triad backwards the next triad forwards with grace notes as leading tones creating even 4/4
DESCENDING

G<E<C>C# ***B>D>F>D# ***A>C>E<D# ***D<B<G<F# ***F>A>C>A# ***B<G<E<D# ***D>F>A<G# ***G<E<C<B


this is one example of only the most basic steps of use of beginner level harmony which MUST already be understood and able to be used BEFORE moving onto the more advanced uses of harmony and relationships!

*this isn't an insult or attack on anyone at all it is just a clear indication for you to assess what level you are at.

people showing up to pretend to argue against basic or intermediate level information of a very large and complete musical language
(Functional harmony/ Tonal language)

are not even understanding all the very basics before coming here to clown around

the above information example is what a brand new beginner should be working on.
*because everything appliciable to the basic levels and intermediate levels is used at the advanced levels and expert levels as well!

if one cannot use th emost basic diatonic information like described above,
(which is literally a 1 hour excersise a teacher gives a beginner day 1 or 2)

then OF COURSE!... OF COURSE they will be confused by more advanced ( but still basic) harmony like upper extensions!

this is important because this particular thread isn't covering beginner and intermediate levels!
this thread is giving the complete set of relationships !

millions, literally millions of books and videos etc. will cover the basic levels.
THIS thread is about understanding the complete set of relationships in a KEY
(and also the relationships of KEYS together)

so, i am not requesting anyone to leave...
however, assess your musical developmental level and if you are early on in your development
don't be quick to make assumptions and arguments.
please, absolutely ask questions !

this thread isn't going to continue arguing the most basic demonstrable principles.

and please take some responsibility that learning is a two way street !

i am here to help and share this incredible information , do your part by actually using and practicing each portion of information and right away take a part of it begin to use it because THAT is how you learn a language like this!

even though this beginner level information of this particular comment was to make a point, don't sleep on it either!
spend 2 hours today using this! a refresh is helpful often!

and next, take a portion of music you already have made and apply this to that.
music is a fractal system.

you can take mary had a little lamb and begin appying all these relationships.

all chord symbols are used to create the same structures, all chord progressions have the same sets of possibilities.
any instance of creating melodies works that same!

say you are comfortable creating licks, riffs, lines, melodies, on C maj triad..
but you feel like you can't figure out what melody to practice over other chords?
that is a clear indicator of what to work on next!

imagine you made 5 melodies for C maj CEG
next step is use those melodies on C6 (CEGA) and Cmaj7(CEGB)
and now those exact 5 melodies over each of the tnoic function chords in KEY of C major/ Amin

TONIC FUNCTION CHORDS KEY C MAJ

C6,CMaj7
D6,D7
Emin,G6
F#min7b5,Amin6
Gmaj7,G6
AminMAj
Amin7,C6
Amin6,F#min7b5
Bmin7,D6

now you have 5 melodies you can play over 9 chords!

next step start creating longer melodies which feature embellishments and decorations!

you see how this begins to build up?

please, anyone with serious questions that actually care about this.... i appreciate YOU!

 

one thing to note about
12 tone e.t.
Tonal music language (Functional harmony)

is that it is Identical to a spoken language !

*identical in all the inner workings and what it actually is what system and relationships there are*

so , you are always ALLOWED to do ANYTHING, and also there is a particular thing anything means!


there are parental forms which make
Substitutions
Superimpositions
reharmonizations

easier.

because once you understand that
the FUNCTION is the meaning of every single thing that happens in the music...

you can reuse different surface level forms in many different ways!

for example the following statement...

EVERY chord type exists in EVERY function!

here is another statement..

ALL 12 notes WORK and work in a specific way for EVERY function and EVERY chord!

what this is pointing at, is that once you understand the relationships and why they work and what they are...
you can take any fragment of music you know say a melody..
and play that over any chord progression or single chord, any key, any function!

you see it literally is IDENTICAL to how spoken language works!

with your spoken language right now which letters are not allowed to be placed next to another?
it does not work that way!

how many words must a sentence have?
it does not work that way

what about this one..

"can one use words about a different topic's spoken sentence to create a new sentence about a different topic ?"

just like with music , it does not work THAT way because
the thing that governs spoken language is the deep level of MEANING!..

letters and words are just surface level symbols to reprsent MEANING!
notes and chords are just surface level structures to represent FUNCTIONS in tonal music.

so..

let's rewind a bit

yes we can take a particular fragment of music ..say

(V7)/(I) (key of G major)

D7(DF#AC)/ (Gmaj7 GBDF#)

and we can reuse the exact structure it was...( say a melody or chords changing with bass notes, or vocal line etc.)

and reuse this in the KEY of C major yes!

this is called
Superimposition.

but rememember
ONLY the function is the deep level of meaning.
so, you have to reuse that in a sensical way.

for example,

the way spoken language works the following is nonsense.

lidthfgodizjfgosdrjgo[;seirjghpdsa'rghmkds'prtgh

because leters are surface level structures to MEAN something.

where as the following is GOOD use of spoken language.
" I am beginning to feel hungry and am about to take a break to eat."

the meaning perfectly comes through!

what if instead it was ..

"this exact moment the stomach growls and rumbles , images of the wretched homeless and starving flash in color through the mind, what must i do now? i feel weaken, i must...MUST.. steal and rob the energy of another being living cells.. crush with my teeth .. the fragments fall down a blackend well. the end approaches.. a blackhole of destruction as those innocent cells fall into acid and soon... they will have no more energy for themselves left..... "

compare the two sentences..

say these two sentences are the KEY of C major.
the first is a melody spelling cmaj CEG triad with a single ringing C in bass.
(a triumphant C<E<G<C)

the second is KEy of C major long progression and walking bass , chords with extensions, melody with embellishement ( although portraying a careless attitude of self importance and comedy)
rhythmicially jagged , and all in all feeling wreckless and jaded with nihilistic emotion.

the point being that this musical information is about expressing yourself and creating the meotions you want for the listener,

there isn't anything important about the letters or words i am using in this thread.

i am sharing an understanding of how to create any emotional respondes from the listener with harmony.

*because most music people have heard of is under developed in the harmony*

also, youll be able study your fav classical composer say mozart, and totally understand how he went from blank paper to finished song!

 

Last edited: Dec 7, 2023

wonderful MMJ much appreciated