And things exaplained in a clearer manner would help in making such decisions. Anyway, I became quite interested in music theory lately and I want to learn more. Never really thought of it in the way it was presented it here, although I am aware of certain bits and pieces of information. But I do lean more toward traditional/classical harmony...guess, it is my personal taste that comes into play here, as you already mentioned. That is why I would like a bit more exaplanation. For instance, I am confused when Vmaj7 takes the role of being a tonic chord. I know that iii and vi can do this, as they share most of the notes with the tonic chord. But Gmaj7 (in the key of C)? I mean how would we keep the sense of Cmaj being the home in this case, and wouldn't Vmaj7 completely change the tonality of the key itself? Not sure, maybe I am missing something here...

 

(20) Charlie Parker and Coleman Hawkins 1950 - YouTube

 

this isn't different than classical harmony lol :D

"that is why i would like a bit more explanation"
yes! good i am glad to hear that!
there ceretainly is a lot more.
we have only just started and we haven't gone into the tiny details of things!

"for instance, i am confused when Vmaj7 takes the role of being tonic."

you are? how so?
okay let's look at this for you :D

key of Cmajor

Vmaj7
is Gmaj7
G B D F#

G is 5th of C major
B is 7th of C major
D is 9th of C major
F# is #11th of C major

in the KEY of C major
the Cmaj CEG expanded to be the full chord is Cmaj13#11 CEGBDF#A

i previously shown how all 12 notes work in the Key of C major with voice leading

V7/I

C is root (B/C),(C#/C)
the B is 3rd of G7 and resolves to C root of Cmaj
the C# is#11th of G7 and resolves to C the root of C major

C# is #11th of G7 (C#/C),(C#/D)
C# is #11th of G7 and resolves to C the root of C major
C# is #11th of G7 and resolves to D the 9th of C major

D is 9th of C major or 5th of G7 (the note just rings entire time)

D# is b13th of G7 (D#/E),(D#/D)
D# is b13th of G7 and resolves to E 3rd of C major
D# is b13th of G7 and resolves to D 9th of C major

E is 3rd of Cmajor or 13th of G7 (F/E)

F is 7th of G7 (F/E),(F/F#)
F is 7th of G7 and resolves to E 3rd of Cmajor
F is 7th of G& and resolves to F# the #11th of Cmajor

F# is #11th of Cmajor (G/F#),(F/F#)

G is root of G7 or 5th of Cmajor(just rings entire time)

G# is b9th of G7 (G#/G),(G#/A)
G# is b9th of G7 and resolves to G is 5th of Cmajor
G# is b9th of G7 and resolves to A 6th of C major

A is 9th of G7 or 6th of Cmajor(just rings entire time)

A# is #9th of G7 (A#/A),(A#/B)
A# is #9th of G7 and resolves to A 6th of Cmajor
A# is #9th of G7 and resolves to B is 7th of Cmajor

B is 7th of Cmajor or 3rd of G7( just rings entire time)

C is root of C major

this is how all 12 notes work on a Cmaj CEG in the key of Cmajor


multiple times i have addressed now the F# tonic note in the Key of Cmajor

every major type chord has a #11th upper extension
(and look closely above there is an exact way all 12 notes work over a Cmajor CEG in the key of C major)

when i write these things they have to be memorized.
(not meant to be insult to the person asking a question , it is just the nature of how this information works to really be able to be used.

i am happing to cover this information again this time because i went into the full detail explicitly.

* but we can't go over the same basic things over and over otherwise this thread would be equivilent to hundreds of thousands of pages book and would get too long for any human to memorize and use.

so based on the explcit information above let's look at
Vmaj7

G is 5th of C major ( very plain
B is 7th of C major ( some tension
D is 9th of C major ( some tension
F# is #11th of Cmajor ( tension.

here are the Tonic function chords in the Key of C major which contain F# the#11th
D7 (DF#AC) ............II7
Bmin7 (BDF#A)...........viimin7
F#min7b5 (F#ACE)........#ivmin7b5
Amin6 (ACEF#).............vimin6
Gmaj7(GBDF#).................Vmaj7

as demonstrated before...
each FUNCTION is a gradient from
consonance to more dissonance

the most tense chords in the tonic function are where the subdominant function starts it's consonance.
the most tense chords in the subdominant function are where the dominant function starts it's consonance.

keep in mind all this information is the way harmony works, i don't get a say in how much information that is or what the relationships are.

if you are interested in understanding every possibility then invest in this.

(classical music harmony is absolutely nested in here it is just that only the basics are usually taught and specific composers memorize for themselves what i am teaching you for hundreds of years. you can listen to any composer using functional harmony and you will see what i am showing you here in their music * that is a type of demonstration don't forget!*)

 

Last edited: Nov 30, 2023

(20) “Lester Leaps In” 1949 JATP Buddy Rich, Roy Eldridge, Charlie Parker, Lester Young - YouTube
(20) Transcription: Charlie Parker - Lester Leaps in - YouTube


this one is very valuble!
play it 50% and 75% and 100% and follow along!
(20) Cherokee - Charlie Parker (Guitar Transcription) - YouTube

 

So, I get this... I get how all the possible extensions work. Still, what do you mean when you give examples of resolution to Cmaj? If Gmaj7 is the tonic then everything would revolve and, ultimately, resolve to it. No? But then, we are not in the key of C anymore. This bit I find confusing.

 

Expanding Functional blueprints

a Key center has 3 different functions ( the deep meaning of everything in a key)

there are 3 different functional blueprints which make everything else up for song sections and chord progressions.

we seen that a functional blueprint's core is made of 3 bars long
and that we can duplicate the function on each end to make it 4 bars long
when we use tonicization on one of the functions it becomes 5 bars
then we can duplicate the function on each end to make 6 bars long
we are starting to see the main building blocks of song sections and chord progressions.

one very common progression is called a turnaround

Imaj/VI7/iimin7/V7/iiimin7/VI7/iimin7/V7
Cmaj7/A7/Dmin7/G7/Emin7/A7/Dmin7/G7

let's reverse engineer this to see how it is built from what we already know.

we can split it in half and see this...
Imaj/VI7/iimin7/V7
iiimin7/VI7/iimin7/V7

it is just copy and pasted
except one portion was changed

Imaj7 (tonic function)
Cmaj7
was swapped out with..
iiimin7 (tonic function)
Emin7

so we reverse engineered a turnaround to this now

Cmaj7/A7/Dmin7/G7
Imaj/VI7/iimin7/V7
(tonic)(?)(subdom)(dom)

because the Imaj7(tonic function) is identical with iiimin7(tonic function)

let's look at (VI7) A7

this is V7 of Dmin7 (secondary dominanant) * a tonicization

but what is the original A chord in key of C major? Amin7

Cmaj7/Amin7/DMin7/G7
(tonic)(tonic)(subdom)(Dom)

it is just the 3rd functional blue print split in half and "turned around"
and one of the ends duplicated (as we learned before)

Cmaj7/Amin7..../DMin7/G7
(tonic)(tonic)....(subdom)(Dom

Dmin7/G7/Cmaj7/AMin7
(subdom)(dom)(tonic)(tonic)

3. the epic battle!
(subdominant)(dominant)(tonic)

we have no reverse engineered a fully modified
( turnaround) progression all the way back to 1 of the 3 functional blueprints.

now let's start from the functional blueprint and do the modifications one at a time to see it it built.

key of C major

take the 3rd funtional blueprint.

3. the epic battle!
(Subdominant)/(Domiant)/(Tonic)

next, put in the basic chords.

3. the epic battle!
(Subdominant)/(Domiant)/(Tonic)
Dmin7................G7.........CMaj7


next , we duplicate the function on the right end

3. the epic battle!
(Subdominant)/(Domiant)/(Tonic)/(Tonic)
Dmin7................G7.........CMaj7..Amin7


next, we split this progression directly in half

(Subdominant)/(Domiant)........./(Tonic)/(Tonic)

we turn oaround the order by placing the last half in the front

(Tonic)/(Tonic)/(Subdominant)/(Domiant)
Cmaj7/Amin7/Dmin7/G7

next we substitute Amin7 to Be A7 ( V7 of I Dmin7) creating tonicization which creates exclamation point on Dmin7

(Tonic)/(Tonic)/(Subdominant)/(Domiant)
Cmaj7/A7/Dmin7/G7

next step, we duplicate the entire thing

Cmaj7/A7/Dmin7/G7/Cmaj7/A7/Dmin7/G7

last step we swap the 2nd Cmaj7 with another tonic chord Emin7 (adding variety

Cmaj7/A7/Dmin7/G7/Emin7/A7/Dmin7/G7

now, we can see how we arrived at a complete song section progression of 8 bars
using 1 of the 3 functional blueprints we a few modifications to get there along the way.

 

first, i am happy to talk to you about this , and want you to get it so dont take our conversation as insulting.

this is already answered above.

if you get how all the extensions work then how could you go on to say...?

" if Gmaj7 is the tonic then everything would resolve , resolve to it. no? but then , we are not in the key of C anymore. This bit i find confusing."

the answer to your question is that within the key of Cmajor
there are 3 functions in a key
tonic , subdomiant, domiant

there is a tonic function which is a gradient from consonance to more dissonant
the most dissoant chords in tonic function are where the subdominant consonance starts
the most dissonant chords in the subdominant function are where the dominant function
starts its consonance.

so let's look at the key of cmajor

Tonic function in full.

Imaj7 ,I6 (Cmaj7),(C6)
iiimin7 (Emin7),(G6)
vimin7(Amin7,(C6)

* so far this is the ordinary diatonic beginner level everyone learns at first now let's comple the entire tonic function.

Tonic function in full.

Imaj7 ,I6 (Cmaj7),(C6) CEGB, CEGA
iiimin7 (Emin7),(G6) EGBD, GBDE
vimin7(Amin7,(C6) ACEG, CEGA
viminMaj(AminMaj) ACE G#
vimin6 (Amin6) ACEF#
II7 (D7) D F# AC
#ivmin7b5 (F#min7b5) F# ACE
Vmaj7 (Gmaj7) G B D F#
viimin7 (Bmin7) B D F# A

so, in summary...

" if Gmaj7 is the tonic" NO.

in a KEY center, there is a TONIC Function with 9 chords
the tonic function ( like all 3 functions) is a Gradient from consonance to dissonance.
Gmaj7
G is 5th of Cmajor (plain as you can get)
B is 7th of C major ( slightly tense but plain)
D is 9th of Cmajor (tense but plain)
F# is #11th of Cmajor (more tense but just barely more than D the 9th )

Gmaj7 ONLY means the notes G<B<D<F# ( and Gmaj7 means nothing else except GBDF#

so we see how each one of the notes in Gmaj7 works as tonic function in key of C major
and we see that the word (Gmaj7) only means the notes that are in it G<B<D<F#



"so what do you mean when you give examples of Resolution to C major"

as stated before , what i mean is i am showing exactly how all 12 notes in music work
in the key of C major over Cmaj CEG ( remember all keys are the same)

the F# note is the #11th of Cmajor and NO note of G7

the F# comes from the relative minor

A melodic minor A B C D E F# G# ( which is included in the tonic function of C major)

this gives us the diatonic chord Amin6 A C E F# ( shown above)

and once more the F# is the #11th of Cmaj13#11 CEGBDF#A

there is no such thing as a way to omit the F# from Cmajor having demonstrating all the connections.

for example.

there is no such thing as a 13th chord missing an 11th note

Key of C major
Cmaj13#11
C....E....G....B...D....F#...A
root.3rd.5th.7th.9th.#11..13


you are doing good with everything my friend! keep up the good work!
remember that upper extensions are used to add color .
* but they can never destroy the actual function of the R35

for example.

key of C major

Cmaj13
CEGBDFA

this is not a Tonic function chord.
Cmaj13 is not a tonic function chord.

the F note destroys the function of the r35

CEG Cmaj is tonic function ( the E is slight more tense than G
CEGB Cmaj7 is tonic function ( the B is more tense than E
CEGBD Cmaj9 is tonic function ( the D is same tension
CEGBDF# Cmaj#11 is tonic function ( the F# is slight more tension than the D
CEGBDF#A Cmaj13#11 is tonic function ( the A is consonant same as C note

now compare to this...
CEGBDFA Cmaj13 is a subdominant function in key of C major/ A rel min

it is just an inversion of..

FACEGBD (Fmaj13#11) subdomiant (#11)
and
DFACEGB (DMin13) subdominant (nat 11)
every major chord has a #11th extension always
every minor chord has a natural 11th extension always

Cmaj13 CEGBDFA is just an inversion of the two diatonic
SUBdominant function chords in the KEY of C major


what about G7 in the key of C?
that is a major type chord so it has a #11th

G13#11
G...B...D...F>..A...C#....E
R....3...5..b7...9..#11...13

this is a dominant function chord in key of C major

what about G13 (maj type chord) with natural 11th?

G13 (G dominant 13th chord)
G...B...D...F...A...C...E...
R....3...5...b7..9..11..13

G13 GBDFACE

that is JUST an inversion of

Fmaj13#11 FACEGBD ( diatonic subdominant chord)
Dmin13 DFACEGB ( diatonic subdominant chord)


G13 (G dominant 13th chord)
G...B...D...F...A...C...E...
R....3...5...b7..9..11..13


the natural 11th C note destroys the Dominant function in key of C major
making the entire chord Subdominant function

(in key of C major *C,F notes togther make subdominant function
coming from the diatonic subdominant function ( in key of C maj/A rel min)

Fmaj7 FAC
Dmin7 DFAC
( we can see the relationship of C, F togther here)

for example sus chords.

CEG cmaj
CDG Csus2 (subdominant function) comes from Dmin13 or Fmaj13#11
CFG Csus4 (subdominant function) comes from Dmin13 or Fmaj13#11

(for example)...

as stated before the Functions are the deepest level of meaning in a KEy center
chords with chord names are ONLY superfical structures to represent
the three Functions in a key center.

going from complete finished solo or song or peice in a key
every single thing is about the 3 functions in a KEy center
it is the meaning that everything represents.

*just like how in spoken language the meaning of a sentence is the deepest level.

example.

if i want to communicate the meaning( i am sick)
i say to bob
" sorry, bob i am feeling quite ill today cannot make our plans we have to reschedule"
that sentence is only about it's meaning an nothing else.

so , a sentence that destroys the meaning might be.
" sorry bob, I don't feel like meeting up today maybe another time"

the sentence destroys the inital meaning intended of ( i am sick)
nothing about the 2nd sentence communicates the intended meaning

Tonal music language (Functional harmony)
{which is all music in a key center}
is about the 3 functions in a key being what absolutely
everything is based on just like the above example with spoken language.

12 tone e.t.
has 4 distinct languages in full
each have their own deepest level of meaning that all the relationships in that language are based on.
Tonal music language ( functional harmony music in a key center)
Modal music language ( harmony in unity )
Polytonal music language ( functional harmony in two or more key centers at once)
Atonal music language ( each of the 88 notes is equal importance as the next at all times)

(the other 3 languages have no key center at all and have no functions at all they have no tonic,subdominat, or dominant)

this series is only about
Tonal music language ( music in key center)
completely in full and every relationship all possibilties

and for particular reason, is because everything learned in Functional harmony is
applied to the other 3 languages ( even though it means something different in each language)

you simply could never learn the other 3 languages omitting tonal music
* it is about the complete set of relationships

so this is expert level information.
nobody not even iq180 polymaths can quickly skim through this thread instantly understand everything and can use it and know every possibility.

even iq140 would take several read throughs and carefully practice using it for months.

iq100 and low requires reading over and over studying and practice applying each small component and requires reverse engineering many functional harmony songs to understand.

however, the effort put into this will give you 5 x your musical ability every small new portion mastered.
this really will transform your musical life.

* remember even though i present in key of C all keys are identical in relationship and how they work

 

Last edited: Nov 30, 2023

12 tone e.t.
has 4 distinct languages each that work a specific way becuase their deep level of meaning is unique.
they each have different set of relationships.
Tonal music language ( Functional harmony) music in a key center
Modal music language ( harmony in Unity)
Polytonal music language ( functional harmony in 2 or more keys at each moment)
Atonal music language ( each note is equal no note more important than another at any time *equality*)

the emancipation of dissonance is referring to
polytonal and atonal languages.

the information i am covering here is ONLY

12tone e.t. Functional harmony Tonal music langauge ( music in a key center)

emancipation of dissoance isn't about what this thread covers.
it is about Polytonal and Atonal music languages which work totally different

for example.

C#maj/Cmaj
CEG/FG#C#

that is emancipation of dissonance.

or

the mother chord
or
the grandmother chord

( you can look those terms up to see more)

what we cover here is just music in a key center with three functions
* the entire set of relationships including understanding every single possibility which ever can be done no matter in the past or in the future.

every relationship with all 12 notes in every key and the relationship between keys
including how every progression works how to build them.
how every substitution possible works.
how every upper extension works.
how every possible melody can be created.
and finally this information gives you the ability to reverse engineeer
every single existing Tonal music piece , song, track, solo, performance
to not only understand how it works, how it was designed and built..
but also every other possibility which could have been done instead
for every momoment in every context.
you'll be able take a melody and make 100s of variations
youll be able take a substitution and make every other possible variation.
literally and actually understanding every relationship which exists in
Functional harmony

 

well, being that we are only a couple days in and only a small amount has been presented on a thread that will cover the totality of Functional harmony tonal language complete and in full..

is that any suprise? lol :D

i mean if you were a polymath with iq of 187
you would still have to go through everything more than once!

i assume you have intelligence of some decent level and i will respond to it with the concise statement ..
Look at the specific context clearly and set realistic expectations with scrupulus ebellience. :D

* hey, i get it maybe some people just don't care and for them being able to come up with 1 idea in 1 moment musically is fine for them.
this series is about learning every single possibility which exists in music istelf , understanding how each one works and then pragmatically being able to use that for your own development and purposes with clear intent to create the exact emotional response in the listener you desire.

this is only for those seeking the highest level.

* i think you should stick with it! go over multiple times and then take what you go over into practices.

also don't forget i will be creating specific examples step by step to go through this set of information i intend to be as pragmatic as possible with the least amount of obfuscation.

the reason why the education system only teaches a beginner level of harmony is many reason...
but do you expect to take a 25 year course? lol ( with their method of teaching with obfuscation everywhere and history mixed in and focus on superficiality :C

 

I think I am slowly getting it...It's kind of fucked up

So...Vmaj7 is not THE tonic, but under certain circumstances it can perform a tonic function since the notes within it can/do create either a consonance or, as you said, mild dissonance (d, f#).
On the other hand Imaj13 is too dissonant to be categorized within the chords that can "carry" tonic (i.e. more consonant) function. The reason being is the natural 11th (in our case F). In other words it is too ambiguous (dissonant?), since its (Imaj13) inversion spells Fmaj13#11 which is a subdominant chord. At the same time the 11th can also obscure the meaning of the dominant chord as in the example of G13 as its inversion, again, spells Fmaj13#11 (diatonic subdominant chord).
Hence, everything revolves around 3 functions in a key:

Could we then say that a key and/or key center only represents a sort of anchor or a reference point with which "the gradient of consonance to dissonance" is being "measured"?

Am I close or am I completely missing the point here?

 

Last edited: Nov 30, 2023

ahh hello MMJ
long time no see my friend
blissbomb here now known as jack sprat

i have been keeping an eye out for you here for many years
i trust you are well?

jack

 

This is why I said that music topics, especially about harmony are fluid and floating. You can not find a unique answer that explains things well. Different answers with different views and when you can't find a single answer that is always right, you will be constantly confused and would talk about tremendous possibilities.

 

a little welcome home track for you inspired by the punch brothers

 

Yeah, I tend to agree with you there. Plus, this is to brainy and cognitive and I don't think is the best approach for doing music. I mean it may work for some people, but I think that I already have enough of these issues on my own when producing/creating music (being too cognitive and not letting feelings/emotions having the final say). After all, people and bands that I listen to probably have quite an opposite approach to making music. Of course that doesn't mean that they aren't knowledgeable (obviously some are more so than the others), but there is no way they are thinking about music in these terms.

 

The major and minor scales were designed and developed in the Baroque period (after modes). Unfortunately, we want to justify the topics related to today's harmonies with the major and minor scales of 300 years ago, and that is why we fall into error.

The major and minor scales were proposed for the ears of 300 years ago. At that time, people's ears were not developed enough and they could not tolerate any sound, that's why they suggested these scales so that musicians could start making music in them.

Today's harmony discussions can't be justified by these two scales in any way, and despite the many efforts that have been made, unfortunately we don't have any other powerful tools to explain the issues.

 

merci d'avoir partagé MMJ2024. Pour ma part, je dirais que c'est intéressant dans un contexte d'apprentissage et de développement de l'oreille analytique, et peut-être même un peu pour composer et improviser. Je l'admets.
Vous devez pratiquer ces règles sur votre instrument. J'ai étudié modestement l'harmonie et le jeu modal, puis le moment est venu d'oublier d'utiliser consciemment ces règles pour laisser vivre le chant et l'émotion.
Consonance, dysonance, tension, relaxation, silence… il existe de nombreux états liés au ressenti.
Je suis français, et je prendrais comme exemple l'apprentissage auditif et visuel des guitaristes manouches, qui ont traduit de nombreuses règles harmoniques de manière audible sans chercher à comprendre le sens mathématique de la chose.
Pour moi, la règle la plus importante est le rythme. Sinon, la musique sera un peu une femme sans féminité.

 

Rhythm is the least important problem in theoretical discussions. It's not a determining factor. It's usually used in ornamentations and embellishments.

 

hello fine sir! it is great to hear from you!
how has everything been?
certainly a rollercoaster for me.

 

yes! i understand where you are coming from because of how similar music harmony is to spoken language.
we spend quite a number of years learning language and then let everything be memorized and the domain of running in the background subconsciously.
this is why i keep saying what i am sharing has to be memorized.
and yes, rhythm is a key thing because each instrument has a melodic contour and a rhythmic contour.
as one begins to develop melodic vocabulary using the information of harmmony ,
this is when we spend a lot of time on Permutations and variations.
slightly changing a rhythmic accent or rest or note duration , moving a melody through alll keys from bright to dark ..
this is the building up of a vocabulary!
rhythm is the oreintation which the musician uses as a guide post once the information component is 2nd nature.
we actually eventually learn that any melodic contour can be superImposed to another function or context and used in a new way.
this is very important.
thank you for sharing!

 

the Key of Cmajor / A relative minor
means
C major scale
C natural minor
C melodic minor scale
C harmonic minor scale
A natural minor scale
A melodic minor scale
A harmonic minor scale

it is just that see how saying that actually does nothing to help understand any relationships or what happens in any music? lol
so, it is pointless to say.
* i guess a fact to memorize for those who fetish facts? haha

 

Last edited: Dec 1, 2023