Yeah, that's the funny thing about classical musicians and people like "First Violinists"/etc . . . , the good ones are much, much, better than normal, particularly with strings.

Like, they get handed sheet music, then they play all these tiny variations intuitively, so it's very difficult to emulate.

You'd basically have to have to be as good as that AND input it , which you might be able to do with MPE, that's why I say listen to Klezmer music for something similar to what you want.

You might be able to stitch something together with crossfading, but it would all have to be the same person and same instrument.

String instruments are tricky, there's the intonation on the fretboard, then like vibrato from the fingers fretting, then the manner in which they transition from different notes, plus the bow, which can be angled in any number of ways and moved and such and such speed with such and such pressure at different points in the movement.

Like, First Violinists and so on are fairly unique people, it seems like "Oh, what's the difference?" Until you've heard a normal person TRY to play something like a proper First Violinist, the it's like "Oh, now I understand . . ."

 

Pianists are like that with Erik Satie, it seems easy, but only a few (Aldo Ciccolini) are good at it, tons of others are terrible, but you only real know if you've heard a person who can really do it well.

 

You can find a lot of clips on yt on swam controlling, and also suggestions on the best controllers, even the most unusual:

BTW: from the comments they ask about Seabord (alone) so maybe I was wrong:

Because you want to control in real time many aspects of the real instrument, as much as possible, in this case, expression, vibrato, bow pressure, bow position, harmonics, etc.

Go also to Synful Orchestra page and go down and play "Partita I for Solo Viola" and see how great sounds.

 

After seeing this video, Sampletank looks interesting.

The keyswitching feature seems to speed up the process of creating the instrument.
Although I seem to be confused.
It seems like the instrument must be loaded first, can it be more than one?

And thanks for the video suggestion.

 

Hello, thank you for the information.
This is very interesting because the violin solo sounds similar.

I found it interesting demo on Youtube , though a bit lacking in expressiveness.
Do you use it too?

I have not been able to hear the demo sample because it requires me to subscribe. Maybe when I have time to open an email with a password of all kinds, I will try it.
Or maybe I will look for it on Youtube for the demo sample, thank you.

I have heard samples from Gio Israel's Jewish Essentials Hasidic Violin. I hope he also makes a Kontakt version that can be played more freely.

Thank you for the info. This adds to my insight too.
All the friends here are very good at providing very useful insight and input. Thank You.

Too bad that's pretty much impossible where I live.

That's make sense now.

 

Last edited: Nov 4, 2023

Thank you for explaining it in detail.
I understand it more clearly.
And it seems like this is getting complicated for me to implement.

Do you have a reference for the 25 articulations? I think I'm interested in learning about it.

Does this mean that each person has a different uniqueness when carrying out these articulations?
Does the tone of each finger significantly affect the sound of the violin?

OMG I've seen it. Very expressive and sounds very different.
Very expressive and sounds very different depending on the bow position and the power the violinist uses.
When the bow is further towards the neck, the sound becomes softer.
However, if the bow is further towards the bridge, the sound sounds very rough. And now I understand better what you were talking about before.

If I get stuck and can't continue because of this articulation, maybe I will replace it with a more regular portamento articulation by playing velocity.

I'm sure it would be very difficult for developers to create sample-based virtual instruments that can carry out articulations as detailed as my first reference.

 

OMG I saw in the video, he uses a controller like a sensor that can detect hand movements.
I remember the Theremin musical instrument.

Looks like I have to use both.
This means that this is an impossible project for me.

OMG, it's insane with SWAM.
Looks like I have to invest in a Midi Controller.

I heard it yesterday and it's amazing.

In the description it is written:

What is Max/MSP?

 

Last edited: Nov 5, 2023

Don't worry, you could use for an acceptable real time control a XY controller (vibrato, expression)*, then you can elaborate in post recording. That's how was made "Crappy Birthday".
In anyway, the snipped sample 1 you provided is pretty difficult (but not impossible) to make in real time, so a post record work must be done.

Max for Ableton (it's a separate graphical development co-app from Cycling 74).

* You can for example use TouchOsc to create your own controller.

 

I have never found a Kontakt library that can realistically deliver the expressiveness of the violin: generally, the result with Kontakt is a quite lame wannabe violin that will lowers the credibility of your track. There are two solutions I can recommend:

Sample a phrase you like from an already published track
If you search in the public domain archive you can also avoid copyright problems

Call a violinist who can play what you exactly want
This way you will have complete control over the result, plus you will be financially helping a classical musician (known for always looking for work)

 

You're very welcome. You can load in up to 16 parts on one instance of the software, ranging from different articulations, HOWEVER, If indeed it is Klezmer instruments you are after, I remember seeing a sample park for Kontackt 4 or 5 many years ago.. I will have a look through my very old archived stuff and let you know if I can find it.

Sample PARK???? I meant pack.. Deary me.

 

You mean this is the process when recording, right?

LOL, what does this mean?

Is this also available for Windows and other DAW?
I use Cubase if you want to know.

Interesting...

So, do I not need to buy a controller?

 

Last edited: Nov 5, 2023

Hello. So I assume, VSTi other than Kontakt is possible?
Maybe for example UVI Falcon?
Or EastWest Play?
Or is there no other VSTi that comes close?

Can you recommend the best place where I can find it?

You have a point.

 

Interesting. I'm trying to dig up about Sampletank. Thank You.

Actually, the violin sound in the reference I posted is very close to that genre.
But overall, the music I work on doesn't use that genre at all.

Wow, that's amazing.
If that troubles you, I apologize. And thank you very much of course.

LMAO, hahahaha

 

You can just do the search engine thing.

here are some resources to get you started.




The standard bow articulations:

https://violinspiration.com/violin-bowing-techniques-terms-symbols-and-definitions/

Violin Lounge has some granular explanations on a few.

A video where some articulations are combined to get up to 102

Cheers

 

Last edited: Nov 5, 2023

Ehm no. Used an XY TouchOsc custom controller on an old android smartphone in real time, then added bow pressure and harmonics in MIDI automation AFTER recording.

Read above.

AFAIK Ableton only, whatever Os.

I always prefer an hardware controller, but a virtual controller on phone/tab is better than nothing.

Example: for NI Traktor there is a sophisticated TouchOsc controller, but unfortunately you don't have the same feel of an hardware console.
You need to have constantly your eyes on the tab/phone cause you can't have a tactile feedback.

However, back to vst, with TO you can create a custom double XY pad, means 4 CCs in real time with 2 fingers, plus you can add a pedal, so now are 5 CCs in real time, though it becomes difficult to learn properly - let's say: play melody with right hand, left middle finger vibrato+expression, left index vibrato speed+bow position, pedal portamento speed.
Then create switches to change play mode like pizzicato, col legno, etc, harmonics, and so on.
then you just need a Deep Blue computational ability to manage all, and it's done.

 

I can't imagine how a Kontakt Lib could come close to SWAM for solo strings or winds.

Even with SWAM instruments it's not quite easy to accomplish all possible articulations. You'll need at least something like a Wind-/breath Controller, or a Seaboard rise... to make it sound (almost) like a real violin.

If you are not an experienced flautist/saxophonist ... it's not worth buying one of the expensive wind controllers from AKAI or Roland, as their technology is optimized for woodwind players.

I found a very simple plug&play $150 breath controller device useful that is connected via USB combined with a MiDi Keyboard.
https://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller

They also sell a combined Breath/bite/neck movement controller, but I won't recommend it because (at least me) often get nauseous when I played with the thingy.

How close to real instruments you can come with SWAM:

 

Last edited: Nov 6, 2023

So try Bohemian Violin from virharmonic, it is a vsti (you have to buy it) but you can find the "old falcon version" in the sister site.
Otherwise try Emotional violin for kontakt, free in AZ

 

Hello, for me who doesn't have basic reading of note notation, this is quite helpful. Thank you.

Wow, this is very detailed in its explanation. Thank you.

On this website, there is a sentence that says :
What to do is often not clear from the sheet music and depends on a combination of:

• Mood that is expressed
• Style or era of the piece
• Speed
• Rhythm
• Dynamics
• Transitions between notes and strings
• Tradition of performance
• Your personal taste and interpretation! (and your violin, bow and unique way of playing)

It says, "your violin, bow and unique way of playing." And that makes me think that to create a similar articulation is very difficult. Moreover, only with Kontakt Library.

Wow, this is even more complete. Thank you very much.
It turns out the articulation is very broad.
Maybe that's why sample-based virtual instruments like Kontakt are so difficult to make at all.
Or has it been there in various developers and I missed it?

 

OMG you are right.
Maybe I'll think about investing in a midi controller and midi cc.
Thank you for your all explanation.

 

Hello. So far, I haven't seen Kontakt be as expressive as SWAM.

Yup, after I read all the explanations from friends in this thread, I started to understand that it was very difficult.

I really don't have any experience with any type of midi controller. I usually use the mouse to draw all the virtual instruments one by one.

Oh this is very interesting. even in the video I saw him making vibrato with his breath.

It could be that I once had the experience of vomiting because I played the melodica/pianica instrument for too long. LOL

Wow, this video is really crazy.

But I really applaud the player who imitated the female violinist with SWAM, very precise.
I'm curious, are our results using SWAM also MIDI? Is it editable?