This isn't a song. It's good music, but not a song that I said. The song should have a feeling, a useful and worthwhile message, tell a story (with notes or words) and bring the listeners along with it.

 

I don't mean to use all the notes in any way and say that I was able to use all 12 notes. Using 12 notes should have a good result and the listeners should enjoy listening to your work and want to listen again.

 

My goal is not to categorize the sounds into consonant or dissonant and trying to fade out the dissonances. Every moment of your music should have a feeling and when a listener listens to your song, he should not feel bad about your music and feel that he is enjoying it.
Unfortunately, most of the music of Schoenberg or other modernists annoys the listeners and the they usually don't enjoy listening to this type of music.

 

I'm saying it once more. The purpose of asking my question was not to use 12 notes in any way and finally say that I was able to use all 12 notes.
Using 12 notes should end up in a song with all the appealing and noteworthy features I mentioned earlier and create a good feeling for the listener.

 

This method is interesting, but in this method, the use of notes or chords becomes random. In this way, you can't tell what each note or chord is doing, so you won't have any control over your music.

 

I told you, but you didnt show appreciation or understanding

did you start studying mozart and mahler? no?
ok

oh well at least did you start studying Irving Berlin's "white christmas"?

 

These people are great composers and no one has any doubt about it.
There are many books about the works of these composers.
The big problem is that the methods used by these great composers are not used by today's music producers.
Maybe the reason is that if they are going to use the methods used by, for example, Mozart, their music will have a classical flavor, and classical music has its own listeners, and the majority of people do not refer to this music.
If you pay attention to my first question, I asked the opinion of today's music producers or musicians about the use of 12 notes in making songs today. Today's songs have nothing in common with the music of the past centuries. Without creating new ways of using 12-note music, today's music listeners will not welcome this music model.

 

I see, then you're probably referring to serialism (Serialism - Wikipedia). Which is largely the type of European music that deliberately most used and abused the chromatic scale. It has nothing to do with mainstream music and the fact mainstream media isn't doing it doesn't mean it's better or worst, in fact there isn't any popular music genre that I'm aware that has the ACTIVE preocupation of using all the 12 notes. It might happen in jazz but more like a consequence and less like a prerequisite.

 

"Creating a good feeling for the listener", you do realize that's entirely subjective, right? There isn't a special technique that can make instant use of all the 12 chromatic notes in a way that it's guaranteed that the listener will find it pleasant, that's simply nonsense, that's not how we understand and appreciate music. It really looks like you're trying to find a solution for something that was proven again and again to be useless throughout the XX century: 12 tone music isn't going to appeal to the masses anytime soon.

 

I do not mean serialism. Most of the modern music of the 20th century keeps the listener in endless tension and doesn't provide any opportunity to express all human emotions (joy, sadness, compassion, violence, peace, etc.). The only thing you hear in the modern music of the 20th century is a set of sound combinations that don't create a sense of euphoria and satisfaction in the listener, and the listeners feel relieved that the music is over and they don't have to go back to it again.

 

Let me try and break it down into something that makes sense.

Four notes x three
Or two x six
Six + four + two
Two + ten
Eleven + one
Remove two from fourteen

 

sorry but this is bordering idiotic. youre insisting that you A) cant use metal, which can contain any emotion you want in music B) cant change keys, which is an elegant and practical means of achieiving what youre asking and C) ignore the rules of consonance and dissonance which aren't subjective. these are ridiculous stipulations designed to free you to go on deludedly insinuating western music is inferior to your whims about a more free and expressive world youve created in your imagination

 

It is trolling. There is nothing concrete in a discussion with unquantifiable measures such as "pleasing", "rich", "unharmonious", and all the other platitudes that get rolled out in a Foster thread. The only actual purpose is to waste your time, usually with a nice air of attempted "musical superiority" to go along with it. It's nothing but a circle jerk.

 

I repeat my question:
Making songs with 12 notes

The only material available is notes and we want to make songs with them. A song that is loved by the public. The focus is on the notes. It has nothing to do with the distorted sounds of musical instruments.

 

It's exactly what you described, if you like serialism or not it's not my problem.

"Most of the modern music of the 20th century", "[...] keeps the listener in endless tension and doesn't provide any opportunity to express all human emotions"

You keep making the most generic and subjective statements like they actually mean something, it's nonsensical and disrespectful, you've clear shown that you're not willing to have a dialogue and you're not interested in making anything you write discernible so I'll stop here.

 

Last edited: Oct 13, 2023

It is not random, you can have consistent chromatic chord progressions that are based on audible patterns that exist only in 12 notes universe and do not exist in anything smaller (like 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 notes per octave). Don't forget that classical composers used pretty much 12 to 14 meantone notes. There is limited number of chord progressions in fixed tuning and they were pretty much based on fifths/fourths. You can replicate in 12 equal any permutation of these chord progressions in any key. Or base it on other non-fifths tuning (on thirds, tritones, seconds etc, any of these is a universe of fixed patterns on its own.)
Melody wise - you can decide what shapes of melodies to use and I suggest modulating 5-9 groups of notes instead of 12-notes melodies, like I said before.

 

Ask yourself, who decides whether something has feeling, with a useful and worthwhile message, tells a story and brings listeners along with it?

Ask yourself, who decides something is appealing and noteworthy?

Oh boy...

Oh boy...

Your answer to the questions is: you. DEGRAD decides. Other users have tried to explain the subjectivity in your statements, but you seem to fail to understand.
Your last two statements also tell a lot about your knowledge of musical history, theory and composition.

Are you a troll? No, I think you're still a kid, and would explain the complete ignorance shown to the numerous examples given by other posters. Which is completely understandable and explains the four pages this trainwreck of a thread has gotten to. Which is why I said I don't think you understand your own question. Let me rephrase it for you:

"Can someone tell me what I, DEGRAD, think is good modern music using all 12 notes?"

No, DEGRAD, we cannot. Because it's your own subjective experience which we, strangers, know nothing about. And that's OK. Keep on learning!

 

There I tons of Twelve Tone Sequences in this, which is just practice/improve I save on Archive.org:

https://archive.org/download/theres-one/There's One.wav

It's easy to do, you have to actually practice playing the instruments, that the big secret, you have to actually practice playing an instrument. At some point, when I upgrade my computer, I'll make proper songs.

NOBODY commenting on this thread has done the obvious thing and read Schoenberg's Theory of Tonal Harmony, he explains how all this works.

Timbre is the fundamental as well as the overtones produced therefrom, after which consonance and/or dissonance thus arises depending on how they're layered, which is rhythmic in nature.

Horns are different from strings/etc . . in terms of dissonance and/or consonance, and have to be layered accordingly. But you do have to actually PRACTICE on an INSTRUMENT instead of just getting stoned and clicking around on a piano roll.

CONSONANCE and DISSONANCE, in a longer musical sequence, have NOTHING to do with scales, chords, etc . . . that has to do with the transition between the notes, which is rhythmic in nature.

To put it bluntly, this whole thread is a bunch of Sequencer Creeps blowing smoke out their asses!

 

I can play 12 tone sequences all day long and have it be consonant, it's easy, because I've practice on physical instruments and read Schonberg's book . . . It's easy . . .

It's called getting stoned, then clicking around, is dumb, because you're too stoned to play the instruments well . . .

12 tone serialism is a technical exercise, i.e. it's meant to develop things that are difficult hand stretches, it's just practice for hand flexibility.

 

(...) With your clothes soaked and your soul full of dirt
Every artist has to go where the people are
If it was so, so it will be
Singing I get undone and I don't get tired
Neither living nor singing (...)
Free translation from Nos Bailes da Vida (Milton Nascimento)​

Yeah, nice... Ok FtrOllSTER, now you can go back to your new music aficionado cave again and please be very happy with all that multi-layered interplay of evolutionary and rigorously academic approach dedicated to contemporary classical composition

 

Last edited: Oct 14, 2023