Hey all! After getting back from a road trip I've decided to re-test most of these plugins to have fresher thoughts on them. I had actually written the post because I was on a road trip and was bored

Edit: Moved my update to main thread & will from here on out

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2023

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/OxLimiterNat--sonnox-oxford-limiter-plug-in-native

They have this on sale for 66$ for the next week ($200 off). I have most of the heavy-hitters you have already checked out/listed but I am still tempted. It's ilok and the chances of a macOS release are about 0.

 

Last edited: Jul 23, 2023

What can you recommend for EDM + hiphop breakdown (808, pads, leads, a lot of loud hihats, vox) to achieve about -5 or -4 or LUFS? Like Skrillex or so

 

Skrillex does his stuff with Pro-L. But his loudness lies in making sparse arrangements with 1-2 big sounds at a time, limiting subgroups cleverly and sidechain compression. Don't expect to achieve that loudness on mix bus.
Then we have Current Value who just YOLO clips stuff instead of limiting, butt otherwise followals a similar paradigm. You make sure your arrangement is made of a few big sounds, you control how these sounds behave, you limit (or clip) subgroups (based on spectrum mostly) and only then you clip+limit the mix bus.

 

A very good mix. Start treating individual tracks with the approproate process (depending on the sound on that track): compression, clipping, limiting. Minimal processing on groups (if groups are used) - because if you process the group heavily (especially with dynamics or clipping), the loudest element in that group will trigger the dynamic process and the other elements will suffer because of that (and youll lose clarity). Make all elements sit until you only catch some rogue peaks here and there on the submix (group). At this point, if you mix with a limiter on the master, doing barely anything, your mix should already hit -9 LUFS. Until you can get a -9 mix, don't even think to add things to the master bus

Now if you add a master bus chain, same for the master chain: the bus compressor should only react to further densify the mix (1.5-2.5 dB) of gain reduction - this will bump your mix into -7 LUFS territory. Don't feed that comperssor a mix that is not already nicely treated against peaks, you need that compressor to react to the actuall melodic parts of the mix, not to fix your mix by squashing unwanted peaks. If this happens, revisit the tracks again.

Next (soft) clipper: you can safely shave 1-2 dB here as well. This will further push you into -6 LUFS.

Next, limiter: 1 dB of gain reduction is enough, this should solidify the -5 LUFS on the busiest parts of the song

Next, eq: if needed, do small adjustments (a touch of shelves, or whatever). The filters may increase the peak but for this you will use the final limiter.

Finally, true peak limiter: this one should work as little as possible (0.2, 0.5 db of gain reduction). This will ensure you minimize the ISPs when converting to mp3 (although there will be, will not be as many, and you'll definitely not hear them).

If you don't feed a proper mix, nicely shaped and dynamically-treated, there is nothing you can do on the master buss to make the sound loud without making it mushy or lose transients. If you feed a nice mix, this master bus chain will absolutely make it loud, crisp and clear

Not naming plugins because they don't matter too much: almost any compressor with attack and release setting, soft clipper, limiter and true peak limiter will do, if the mix is right. If the mix is not, you'll spend hours and hours digging for the perfect master bus chain setting. I'll rather spend that time learning to mix. Cheers!

 

Over-limiting can REDUCE the perceived loudness of a track if it reduces the dynamic range too much. That being said, my current picks for limiting of heavy bass content are: DMG Limitless, TC Electronic Brickwall HD & iZotope Maximizer.
A good mix is more important than any of these though!

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2023

i have put in the trash bin Fabfilter limiter ages ago

in mastering I usually use 2 limiters, sometimes 3
the first one can change according to the material I am working on or if I am experimenting/demoing a new limiter. Lets say that in my chain this is "the experimental step", where I test and find new possibilities
the second one is always the same
the third one is always the same (for a trick)

in order:

1 Voxengo Elephant: using this one in the last year, giving me a lot of successful results
I sometimes substitute this one with Cubase RAISER, Limitless or Invisible Limiter v3

2 Newfangled ELEVATE: been using this one since ages, never changed and I think I will never change it

3 Waves L2: I sometimes use this 3rd limiter with just 1.5dB of limiting, as last one. When it works, it PUNCHES the lowmid range in an amazing way. Lets say I can apply this trick 4 out of 10 times. I saw a video about this, I will post if I remember which one.

 

I just tried W1 by 4Front Tech which is a clone of waves L2 minus the auto release which is only approximated. If it's anything like that then I can see why people like it. Last time I used Waves limiters I was pretty new to audio production so probably couldn't tell the difference between limiters nor do I remember, but like I said this sounds great to me!

 

Isn't that the opposite? The bigger the dynamic range the less constant is audible loudness. Making things more discernible in a mix is one of the goals of compression and it works precisely reducing dynamic range. The problems with over limiting might be diverse but imo they come down to two big topics:

1 - Transient smashing or "softening", thus reducing the impact and character of a signal.
2 - Unintentional pumping effect, which often makes a signal sound "flabby" and inconstant.

 

The usual "brickwall VS regular limiter" misconception again on some posts above ... mastering VS /tracking, mixing

Brickwall limiter use LOOK AHEAD to reduce distortion : mastering
Regular limiter react in REAL TIME, so create more distortion : tracking, mixing

Most so called "mastering limiters" are BRICKWALL limiters (sometimes combined with "regular" limiter, to get the "slow attack pumping" effect).

WHY no look ahead on regular TRACK limiters, creating less distortion?
Because it creates LATENCY due to look ahead, so tracks MAY be misaligned (phase/transients troubles).

That's the bare minimum understanding.
Here we speak about brickwall/mastering limiters, NOT tracking/mixing ones.

They are totally different animals.

 

oops. for some reason I linked to Inflator, which is only sale for $39. I meant to link the Oxford Limiter, which is 66$.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/OxLimiterNat--sonnox-oxford-limiter-plug-in-native

my bad. So far, not many surprises to me. Except WaveArts Track Plug 6, people usually speak highly of them but it reminds me of ISL2; in that it is more focused on standards compliance than what I'd rather hear happening. Have you tested Sonalksis MaxLimit? It sounds pretty nice, but I think it is not "fixed completely", unless my mouse pointer is supposed to disappear. Maybe I should switch to my "tracking mouse" instead. lol. A tool which is tailor-made for a specific task will almost always yield better results than one which is not.

 

Last edited: Jul 23, 2023

I could've worded it better. What I mean is what you said about transient smashing & pumping. While the entire mix can become louder in DBFS, things such as kicks sound like they've become quieter with aggressive limiting & reduce the overall "impact" of a track.

 

The more I read you, the clearer it's that, how do I put it, you will only get better at mixing with time :D
Consider using a clipper instead of a limiter as an exercise/experiment. Results might surprise you.
Most comfy on snares, of course, but don't underestimate a clipper-limiter combo on a mix bus or any complex material.

 

Not sure I understand. I was literally telling someone to avoid using limiters too much. If I want a soft clipper I'll use a soft clipper; & I often do.

 

As I said, by leveling:

Spoiler: even at 39Hz

Additionally, have a look at the peak (above the level meter) and the RMS for a heavily limited sine wave. Sine A -2.0 & -5.0dB -> perfect sine wave -> limiter, Sine B -2.0 & -2.2dB -> waveshaper, impossible for a limiter to achieve

Spoiler

 

1. EQ to reference tracks or use Tonal Balance Control, if you are having trouble getting to -5 then you likely got too much low frequencies before limiting.

2. Use some slight saturation on the mix. kush omega transformer for example.

3. Use a clipper like Flatline or K-Clip or Standard Clip or whatever before limiting to keep your transients, but don't let it cut into the tonal parts or bass / sub (this is why point 1 is important). Don't be afraid to clip your transients by up to lets say 6 dB at this stage. You should be able to be comfortably be at -6 to -8 LUFS at this point without using a limiter at all. There won't be audible distortion when clipping transients as these are basically noise anyways.

4. Last use two L-2, one with fast settings on aggressive, minimal look ahead, long attack, short release and another one with more relaxed settings, i prefer punchy or transparent mode there. the first one should do 1-2 dB gain reduction at max the second one like 0.5 dB. Now you should be able to get to -4 to -5 no problem.

 

Last edited: Jul 24, 2023

But you just explained why leveling does nothing.
Have you watched the video I answered to? Please do, it's short and you don't need to know any languages.
Regardless, it's a well-known fact that certain dynamics tools can act like waveshapers under some circumstances, I have no idea why you have issues with simply stating it. Don't tell me you never used Rough Rider as a distortion.

 

If pulling down the level is nothing, then, yes. Er, is that what you mean???

Whom?

 

afaik the max rms on a sine without causing distortion is -3dB, to get more you have to slowly transform it into a square wave, square wave is +-0dB (that's what waveshaping/saturation/distortion/clipping does)

 

The L3-LL Multimaximizer has the same 5-band dynamics engine as the L3 Multimaximizer, but cuts latency dramatically by using phase-compensated crossovers instead of linear-phase filtering. Now you can use maximization live or for tracking—with the same interface as the standard plugin.

Waves’ proprietary Peak Limiting Mixer™, ARC automatic release control, and ability to set band priorities are key to delivering unparalleled maximization while retaining a smooth, musical quality.

• Priority parameter ensures bands you choose stay front and center
• 5-band operation minimizes intermodulation-based distortion
• Bit-resolution conversion and dithering for digital releases
• Release “profiles” cover the range from aggressive to warm
• Solo buttons to isolate bands for easy tweaking
• Variable crossover frequencies, release times, and band gain
• Use for individual instruments, buses, or mixes
• Includes mono and stereo components