I was never satisfied with guitar amp vsts: resonance, harchness, white noise, aggressive highs, etc.
So I tested some preamp pedals and I found this 30 euros pedal that saved me a lot of mixes. It has an internal ir but you can use others in the daw. It's not for metal but with the addition of a good quality distortion pedal, it can really do the trick. I even play with it live plugged directly into the console. It's pretty amazing for the price. And I have pedals that are 10 times that price.
https://www.thomann.de/fr/harley_benton_american_truetone.htm
I also use reamping a lot with my tube amp without having to raise the level which destroys the neighbors ears. I record my guitar directly into the sound card without effects or sim amp.
You should also know that bad microphones will always give bad results on an electric guitar. It's better to have one sounding guitar than ten crying guitars.
This is just my experience, not a pure science.

 

Check your levels: too hot or too weak input signal may give you a bad sound. Some amp sims have an input meter that will help you to properly gain stage your levels. If not then just use a VU meter calibrated to roughly -18 db FS.

 

I found the Scarlett to be the culprit in delivering cardbox DI sounds. Nowadays using either my Ampeg PF20t, Focusrite ISA One or Motu M4. They all deliver using Amplitube 5.

 

I don't like to be the guy to ever say just randomly throw money at stuff as your panacea studio solution. But a guitar collection like this headed at a gen2 or 3 Scarlett 2i2 or whatever; I can't really skip pointing that one out. It's like the 66 split window on 14s at the race track.

 

@kokorico
I had the same experience ... until discovering "profiling"

Here is a list of profiling solutions, working A LOT BETTER than any algo sim.
You really FEEL the strings attack and dynamic.

Kemper
Mooer GELabs iOS and GE200 (and over) pedals (Mooer Capture) and "Anthony Class" preamp profiles only and custom IR (OwnHammer for me)
Neural DSP (plugins and Quad Cortex)
Overloud THU Rig Player
(and more to come)

This is the ONLY solution i found to get realistic attack, dynamic, frequency response ...
Now i can't stand algo sim any more

And i totally understand analog pedals VS sims
Analog distos pedals AND IR loader is a good solution, especially for live gig

About "too hot" signal : YES it is a problem
Not only on digital
That's why, as a regular plugin/hardware modeler user, i LOWERED my hotter pickups to get an average output.
Now my pickups NEVER saturate AD inputs.

Even on real pedals/amps, it can be a problem.
More pickup output is NOT always a good thing
From my experience, i prefer an overdrive pedal to over powered pickups.
Because there is an output level knob

When you over power input, it breaks pedal / amp gain staging, witch is made for AVERAGE output pickup.
It is just buzzing on attacks AND fall back to clean just after.
More gain = more buzz
Less gain = clean
But you NEVER get a good distortion : only ATTACK BUZZ

Beware of this "louder output pickup is better" trend : it is pure marketing bullsh*t for overpriced "hand wired" pickups

 

Last edited: Jun 22, 2022

@PifPafPif
Kemper is a rather expensive solution. But it's pretty amazing. I tested it but it's not for me. I really like simple setups with some send/return effects and playing with a volume pedal.
There are also very good things at Two Notes. Expensive too.

 

Try a second hand GE200, with Anthony Class preamps (FREE) profiles and good IRs
It is around 200 bucks
But be prepared : effects s*cks
Only good for base sound (overdrive/amp)

Hear this (Kemper vs Mooer Capture) :

 

I didn't know the Neural plugins were profiling.

 

After reading your post, my first suggestion would be to use less gain than you think you need and hit strings way harder than you think you need to. This is the true modern metal way (unless you play black metal and prefer the "trve kvlt" way of setting your gain to maximum).

And remember that you won't get a good metal tone if you focus on just an isolated sound. A tone that is fun during practice often doesn't sound good in a mix, once your guitars are dual-tracked.

Quad Cortex has profiling, but not plugins, as far as I know.

 

Have gone for a hybrid approach.
Both my Headrush MX-5 and EVH Iconic Combo amp have effect loops.
There are a number of ways to hook them together with the 4 cable method as well as others.
The possibilities are practically endless...

 

I agree. Maybe there's something hard to detect but easy to fix.
Even if your audio interface is not the best for recording guitars like I've read in some comments.

 

My two cents:

Starve your low end going into the amp sim. I mean, eq or pedal, or pedal sim. You can BRICKWALL high pass to 100hz, or above, and even a slight mid boost at 700hz-2k, right into the amp sim will give you more attack. Now after the amp sim, I find that most amp sims, stock, are too dark, but also have a fizz in the high end. What I like to do is grab an API 550B EQ from Waves, or something similar and parametric, and just add mids and body AFTER the amp. Usually this takes away from the fizz and sterility. I don't go too crazy, a little lift will do just fine.

Also, don't be afraid to low pass eq after the amp sim. Get rid of the harsh fizzy shit. You'd be surprised how far in you can go before it gets too dark. Low passing up to like 10k-8k really kinda focuses on all that good mid range, which is usually what people get wrong about guitars. It's a mid range instrument. It sits in similar frequency ranges and mixes as HORNS used to in the 20's and 30's. That's essential what the electric guitar did. It replaced HORNS. Keep that in mind.

PM me if you'd like, and we can talk further.

 

It is a secret :D

Because everyone would ask : WHY you don't release Quad Cortex as plugin ?
Instead of making a new plugin everytime ...

The same way Kemper NEVER wanted to make a plugin version.

Whereas technically, there is no profiling barrier between hardware and software

 

What is -6db? If you’re gain staging in the digital realm most sims want -18 to -12 dbfs rms. Are you using your guitar into a multiport Mic/Line input or a Hi-Z input? Are you 100% sure your dry input signal isn’t being output in addition to the wet IR signal somewhere in your chain?

 

Thx again for all the answers, I appreciate it a lot ! I had an unexpected hospital day with my daughter (all OK) so I won't be able to provide dry tracks today...
I wasn't clear enough on my post, there is 1 major thing in particular that drives me the most insane : I feel like there is something happening in the center of the stereo field which I can't describe and shouldn't be there.
I pan my guits hard left and right, already tried less wide or stereo enhancer (Waves S1), but it didn't improve the result.
All my reference mixes have a very clear center, guitars stick well on their side (even when obvisouly widened or not hard L/R), but I ALWAYS have a mess in the middle. I tried mixing in M/S as well, with no good.
My guitars tone's "color" isn't that much of a problem, I respect and like their particularities, but it's really the messy middle and the lack of clarity that kill me. I need them clear and in your face, and I know it's possible with the vast majority of my axes.

@Crinklebumps I didn't think of playing with volume and tone knob ! I'll definitely give it a try as soon as possible.
I'm always cutting with a decently high Q instead of boosting, and then do small Q bumps smaller than 1.5dB to adjust the balance as much as possible.
I'm setting all my pickups in my sweet spot to have enough beef but the fewest quackiness, but it doesn't solve the problem to my taste
I indeed set my tone with isolated guitars, I know I shouldn't, but only to find a way to delete quackiness and fizz, wich I can't for the moment. As I said, I'm well aware that perceived guitar tone in a mix is actually more cymbals + bass than the guitar itself
But yeah, I agree it's an infinite unwinnable battle to find THAT best mix possible. Whatever the positive feedbacks I get, I still think I'm sounding like crap. Maybe I'm expecting too much of myself, but if I know better is possible with what I have, I won't ever be happy.

@Ryck Yep I'll post drys as soon as possible. I ruled out the hardware as well, as I had the same problems with my previous PC (I changed 2 month ago) and my previous interface (Presonus Firestudio Project)
I'd say in my genre, guitars use to be more bright, but my reference mixes are bright but NOT fizzy, and that's where I'm lost

@clone Are you referring to my DIY kit ? Hahaha. I'm cherishing the 5 others, don't worry :p Never tried Pro-DS, I have to next time I can open my project ! Sounds like a possible partial solution here, thanks !
Regarding the Scarlett, I know a lot of people got it (3rd gen btw) and have really killer tones and mixes, that's why I rule it out as the cause of the problem. I should find a way to try a higher end interface in comparison.

@Lieglein The video is horrible, no doubt. Guitar tones are not the best but I would be more satisfied with this than mines. Too loud in the mix and a little too bright, but it's an easy fix and was obviously an artistic choice

@livemouse I didn't mention that I got 5 basses as well, I'm a bit of a hoarder... I'm satisfied with what they deliver, I just lack the skill to properly mix the low end. I only blame myself for this, basses are more than fine (even if dirt cheap)
I already noticed I have my own kind of sound, I know I'll never sound exactly like my references, but at least I should be able to have the same tonal balance (if that makes sense).
It's not normal that I can't get my guitars sound more "in your face" and less quacky. I'll describe it as a bad signal to noise ratio, noise is louder than the body of the sound.
And yeah, I've seen this video some years ago, this is talent and proper soundcrafting !

@PifPafPif I'll definitely continue my IR treasure hunt, and will give OwnHammers a try ! Thx for the hint. If I could I'd definitely go for a Kemper as well, these seam to be as close to a real amp as you could get from what I witnessed.
When the demo switches for Kemper to Mooer, instant load of fizz added. So this will be a no go at first, but I might chek this further out.

@kokorico and @Kluster I'm not a fan of pedals, but thx for the link ! I wish I had a good tube amp and a good cab, but I can't afford it, money-wise and space-wise. I witnessed beautiful amp sim tones sitting perfectly in a heavy mix like I love, so I need to find a way to make them work like I would

@Hazen Is -6dB input too loud ? I may try to lower it again. I did it in the past without good results, but maybe I did it wrong. Thx !

@anonymouse See my answer to clone regarding the Scarlett. I think I'll go to Thomann some day (I live 500km away, could be worse) with my PC and my guitar and test other interfaces, really

@Ak3mi91 My process to find the right gain, after having setup the input gain, is to go from 0 to the point where sustain just appears. Like, before this point the palm mutes barely last after the hit, I just go slightly higher.
I'm pretty sure my gain is not the problem as the fizz is already there even at the point the signal is barely audible. It's literally the first part of the sound that shows up... And this whatever the guitar and the chosen IR !

@Olymoon and @Xupito the more the comments show up, the more I'm considering the dry tracks could actually be the problem. I'll get you some tomorrow and meanwhile I'll experiment a little bit with my Focusrite input gain

Oh and before I forget, I didn't forget to activate the Hi-Z mode on my input channel !

EDIT : @Moogerfooger You replied while i was writing my response, I knew the Hi-Z question would show up :p So yes it's a Hi-Z input, and 100% sure my signal is 100% wet as I only use amp sim suites (99% of the time Archetype Gojira or Fortin Nameless)

 

Yes, exactly. It was an artistic choice.
That's why I said "You do not need your guitar tone to sound good."

It's not directly about the sound, but about interpretation. Production in general is about interpreation.
So the only advice I can give, is to not to care about tweaking harmonics in the first place, but about composition and playing style.
Master of puppets was not a success because they used mesa and marshall but because of interpretation.
If they would have used diezel for example it really wouldn't have made a difference at all.

So as always, everyone advises to use their favourite gear.
But I really can not advise this. Because it really does not matter at all.
Not the guitar nor the amp or the pedal.

 

Last edited: Jun 22, 2022

OK guys I've tried re-recording at -18dB PEAK on the track I'm currently working on, and the quackiness actually went down. So already a huge thanks ! In the past I thought this was really too low of a signal. Still to quacky, but at this point I know nearly for sure it's the guitar (Harley Benton R-457 multiscale, stock pickups, can't lower them to have more than 2-2.5mm of action between the bridge pup and the downside of the 7th string, that's room for boomy low end and quacks).

Unfortunately, still more fizz than signal brightness. I can't send the dry file as it was a draft recording (everybody's sleeping in rooms next to mine, and it's late, can't play well in these conditions ). But yeah, definitely a step in the right direction. I'll try with other guitars tomorrow and will give you a debrief with the drys.

Technical question : would a fizz excess caused by a lack of trebles in the dry signal compensated by the VST, or the opposite as in too much trebles on the dry signal ?

@Lieglein Agreed, I wrote an unreleased uber long track (nearly 10mn lmao) of sad melodic metalcore, from which I know the tone is questionable and the mix poor, but it fits well the emotions I wanted to communicate so I'm happy as it is, no need to unleash the beast with a massive sound. Oh and f**k it I'll join this one for the sake of the sub-debate, first public release of a work still in progress (4 years of occasional tweaks, tracks are still recorded as drafts, I'm not in a rush)

 

On this song, guitar is nice

Cymbals are more aggressive than guitar fizz
Combined with kick "pumping" master bus

Like this song btw

 

Makes sense.
Also, if what you're saying is true, I've been victim of my own bias.
Neural's Fortin Cali Suite is, in my opinion, the most realistic sounding amp sim plugin ever, and I love it.
But I've always felt TH-U Rig Player more realistic because of the profiling thing.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that Rig Player is less tweakable than a full amp sim interface, and it's too easy to sway away from the zone where it feels more like the real deal than a plugin.

 

Hey guys,

I didn't show up last days because I was very busy and tired, but I kept trying things y'all said, and I got a "less" worse result than when I first posted. I wanted to do tests before sending the drys to avoid wasting your time.

I'm writing today because I tried playing in Archetype Gojira in 48kHz instead of 44.1kHz. MAAAAAAN how is this possible to get such a difference ??? I tried switching between the 2 rates countless times for 10mn, and I'm absolutely speechless. I got a tiny bit less fizz, still a bit too much without processing, but the whole low-end and low-mid range is infinitely cleaner and tighter.

And I found a very natural and full sounding combination of IR after some more tries : stock SM57 + a mixed IR from York Audio's 412 Marshall.

Once again thanks guys for you advices, I won't annoy you further for the moment. Maybe I'll come back later if I meet another barrier, but from this point my processing skill will be the limiting factor I guess