I thought this thread was dead ages ago when we all graciously left it as nicely vague with
"yeah - A minor pentatonic will be ok most of the time"
I didn't think anyone wanted to dig into further detail than that.

But now I see the discussion is being expanded and its very nice to see that people are illustrating what I previously said...
i.e., "There are so many ways of approaching this."

So, here's yet another more detailed perspective...

I previously said...
"Just as an aside: I'll hazard a guess (only a guess) that if you were improvising with A minor pentatonic over your chord progression (most of the time), it would probably feel more natural than trying to exploit A Major. But, of course, it pays to follow the actual chords when improvising."

So, why was I hedging my bets and not just asserting 'A minor'?

2 reasons:

[1] We haven't heard the OP's 'actual' chord progression. We are all working with just whatever versions we conjured up ourselves. While I agree (and stated) that A minor would fit many (most) versions, it would not be hard to compose a version where A minor just didn't feel right.

[2] My pet hobby horse complaint is that "saying A minor' is just too vague! I've ranted about this vagueness is countless other posts in the forum. Which 'A minor' do you mean? 'A Aeolian'? 'A Dorian'? 'A Phrygian'? 'A Harmonic Minor'? 'A Melodic Minor'?

I'll still agree with anyone who wants to stay vague about it and just improvise and not really care about what all those odd notes really amount to, but that's in a practical playing context. In a music theory discussion context I want to get much fussier and want to discuss what's actually going on.

Here's an example. In that chord sequence [A] [C] [D] [F,G]

Question: While you're improvising over those chords which of these notes work well for you?
F versus F# ?
C versus C# ?
I'll bet that most of the time you find something like the following...

Over the [A] chord especially, but also over the [C] [D]
- F# will work better than F
- every C that you play you'll probably be tastefully micro-bending it up towards C#

Over the [F,G] chords
- F will work much better than F#
- you'll probably still be micro-bending C up towards C# - but 'maybe' less so.

Question: What scale choices explain the above?

My interpretation (just one of many) is...
Over the [A] I'm playing a hybrid of A Mixolydian mode and A Dorian mode
The C to C# micro (bluesy) bend is a feature of that hybrid scale
The F# is common to both A Mixolydian and A Dorian (but it's NOT 'A Aeolian - A natural minor')

Over the [F,G] chords I change mode to 'A Aeolian' (A natural minor)
This can be emphasised by the F instead of F# and the C instead of C#

So, the sequence is shifting modally as the chord sequence progresses.

2 different contexts 'Playing' or 'Analysing' - for me that's 2 different mind sets.
When playing:- I don't object to giving it a scruffy label like A minor and just allowing the nuances to emerge during improv where I don't want to be thinking AT ALL!
But if you want to analyse it, then the detail matters, and then a vague phrase like 'A minor' just doesn't cut it.

Want some more experimentation to demonstrate the above?
Try the chord sequence structured more like these four bars...
[A,Asus,A,A] [A,Asus,A,A] [C,,D,,] [F,,G,,] and give it a Rolling Stones / Keith Richards rhythm feel.
So this is now pushing the 2 bars of A more towards an A Major feel.
Will this make it harder to play A minor?
Not really - but only as long as you recognise that your 'A minor' is 'A Dorian' and not 'A Aeolian' (A natural minor). and you will still be pushing those C notes up to C# to fit the bluesy minor/major. And it will now sound even better to just briefly switch to 'A Aeolian' (A natural minor) for the [F,G] bar - now emphasising the F note that you avoided everywhere else.
Of course if you stayed with 'very sparse' A minor pentatonic (never going beyond the 5 notes) then none of these nuances with F versus F# would emerge. BUT you would (should) still be paying attention to what's going on with that C - C#. A plain C from 'A minor pentatonic' is probably going to sound pretty crap - and it's worth understanding why.

 

Let's hear your tune, OP, and for that matter, why don't we give actual musical examples that can be heard instead of stodgy dissertations. Howard Cosell could give great play by play but I doubt he could throw or catch a football (oooooew...controlversal statement)

 

Last edited: Jun 5, 2022

This (and many other threads) are very interesting to me. I agree with the general consensus of "if it sounds good, go on!" ok, that's great, as I said I agree, but sometimes when I'm playing around I feel like the chords want to resolve somewhere and since I'm a complete ignorant on the subject (apart from the basics, like using the last two notes upped a semitone in a minor scale (i think that's a harmonic minor if I remember correctly, like using ), playing an out of scale dominant chord of the next one, etc) and sometimes I wish I knew more... for example, if I start playing around with 7th chords, aug/sus, all that jazzy/blue stuff, it gets busy really quickly. The fact that I do not know how to play an instrument doesn't help at all (I have a MIDI keyboard I use it for comodity and to play around sometimes).
So, yes, follow your instincts etc. etc. but there is a balance like in all things. Knowing some stuff might actually helps your instinct and feeling, don't you agree?
(How would I study into details this stuff? Knowing full well I'm not a piano composer or any musical genius and I don't plan on writing mozart)

 

As you suggested 'depending...' the E on the F too for the maj7 also creates its own effect.
Yes you are onto it - the variables pretty much determine most of the choices we would make.
Also the melody has quite a bit to do with the choices too because it's an insight into what the writer was hearing.

 

You pretty much nailed it in the "But what are we improvising on " implication.
If the rhythmist is a piano or a guitarist, their voicings can determine some of the choices. If they choose to voice each chord where every major 3rd is predominant you are correct, the Am pentatonic may not cut it because there will be clashes. That said, many blues players would approach it with blue notes so potentially almost get away with that scale. As you also suggested on either the analytical or scale approach, that puts up a pile of options. The blues scale would work too. As would the Dm pentatonic because it also contains relevant notes. Darker sound but it works.... I guess it simply comes down to what sounds best and/or works best for the person improvising.

 

ABSOLUTELY correct

Here is what the Am Minor Pentatonic and The major scales for the authors idea look like and sound like
Using a straight up and down no imagination scale run on each.
BOTH work. BOTH sound different.



AUDIO HERE:
https://vocaroo.com/1fqal4lsDfVW

You could replace the A with an A Mixolydian to stay on context with a G so there's no G# but there's no getting around the F# unless you change the D to a minor or add a #9.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2022

I can take the third eye in the "brown" area,
but I donno.. I'm still not seeing the pizza slice and broccoli butt-cheeks..

And what's that under,
the glass half-full and the missing "half empty water" without a glass?

For some the road to dunkin donuts and addiction may not have been a choice afterall..

 

Superb. I commend everything you did in that post.
However, if it prevents seeing Lois explode on my monitor then that will be a significant downside.

I feel compelled to join in with what you did there @BaSsDuDe.
So, I will generate a similar resource to illustrate my previous "shifting modally" perspective.
It will share your spirit of just illustrating that many (non contradicting) approaches and perspectives are possible.
I will also try to explain how all these approaches are (in many ways) just saying the same thing from different vantage points.
As a silly analogy...
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
[] [] [] []
You might describe the above as a 4 x 3 matrix. and I might describe that as a 3 x 4 matrix.
Someone that doesn't 'get it' might think we're arguing when clearly we're not.

I especially like the fact that your example was presented like a music text book exercise.
Keeping it ultra simple like that is important. No musical embellishments that enable someone to get away with anything.
Just simple chords and scales to see whether they fit together or not. I'll borrow your approach.

Cheers

 

Cheers guys. Thanks a lot your replies. They are very interesting and going beyond my music theory knowledge It is a lot to learn from you. Thank you for that.

Anyway, being on holiday at the moment I will prepare a sound example of my chord progression and post it tonight.

My question about an all-major-chord scale was caused by my friendly singer I asked to create a vocal tune for my track - “OK, what key is that?”.

All chords are triads not 7th chords.

 

I could see immediately after doing that quickly that because they are only triads, the harmonic replacement potential is substantial. As a simple one without going over the top, all II/V . When we only use triads it opens it up for many possibilities in modes, substitutions and other alternatives. It also depends on the genre. In rock or blues the pentatonic or a blues scale might be the best choice, in jazz or classical it could go in any direction etc etc etc - then of course the scale COD people could justifiably point to a specific chord alternative or mode depending on which note it is started from - so on and so forth.

The OP has said he will put up his idea soon so I guess all will be revealed!!

Also - Thanks for your kind words.

I have never seen it as anything but stimulating discussion with you. I believe you are very intelligent with a large music vocabulary knowledge. I have only seen anything you propose differently as a perspective. Depending which angle any of us look at something, it can be approached or interpreted any number of ways. In that scenario it becomes just another way.
And hopefully we all learn something on the way.

P.S. - The funny thing is looking at the chart, in the major section there is an error in bar 6 (The C) but it works because of the chord itself having no major or minor 7th. So a G Mixolydian, G or C Ionian or.........and more... - It should be an F# instead of an F natural - But as we both seem to agree - the possibilities are substantial

 

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2022

OK, have done this. I rushed the audio and the notes so please excuse any typos. howlers, etc.
All of this relates to my previous post above where the perspective I wanted to describe was “shifting modally”

The example is just a cheapo MIDI assembly rendered as an mp3 file.
It has all the same naff features as a plodding exercise in a music theory text book.
Please don’t turn it into a hit record.

Included in the spoilers below...

An annotated bit of score just playing the (triad) chords [A Major] [C Major] [D Major] [F Major, G Major]
Bass plays chord roots; Elec piano plays the triads (with quick scruffy voicings);
Pan Pipes play just plodding scales over the chords.
Includes comments about how the Hybrid Mixolydian/Dorian mode might get used.

Spoiler: Annotated score

Some comparisons with other posts from @BaSsDuDe and @ᑕ⊕ֆᗰIᑢ
where an obvious observation is that we’re mostly describing exactly the same stuff (the same shifting tonalities)
but we're viewing it and labelling it from different preferred perspectives.

Spoiler: Comparing perspectives

Audio link (and attached) https://voca.ro/1o1aJ2COXGva

p.s.,

@BaSsDuDe - yep, I did notice that F#, F quirky bit.
Sorry but it's now immortalised in my notes too. Too late to change it all.
And better for people that are learning about this anyway.
Now they have to say "what error ?" "what does it mean?" and then figure it out.
(and I just had to correct a similar error in my notes )

Cheers

p.p.s
Did my very best to publish another stodgy dissertation,
a few more like this and we'll have Lois in "thar she blows" mode.

 

Last edited: Jun 6, 2022

mind sharing the midi?
nice post, thanks for the effort.

 

That was inspiring...
Wonderful work.


OK so I tried to follow a similar path based on what I said earlier

What I chose was four slightly differing approaches and like you, walking the talk so people can hear it is productive. As follows
1. I chose to do the II |V approach first


2. Followed by all relative minors

3. Followed by all LYDIAN DOMINANTS


4. I repeated this - notice how easily your ears adapt and find nothing out of the ordinary on the repeat. The Lydian dominant makes you almost breathe a sigh of relief when it lands back on the A


THE AUDIO
https://vocaroo.com/1kG3SLfVO26R


@Ad Heesive - Play all major 7ths on every triad. Gives it a flavour all of its own. You can almost hear why and how Bacharach used maj7ths so much.

 

To the more valid type that we are more likely to do which is write something melodically to go with it that is half decent.
The Author did not mention a time signature so this one is in 3/4.

I used the "ALL Major 7ths" as mentioned in the last post and decided to quickly write a semi-beauty based melody. I could probably do something nicer if I spent a lot of time, but it suffices.

To be honest I would move this whole progression if the melody was the primary focus down to F because while cello and french horn is a beautiful combo, the french horn player would want to kill me by the end of this piece.




AUDIO HERE
https://vocaroo.com/1gTLZzkCdQQS

 

No problem. I just added it to the post.
I only just discovered that you can't add MIDI files as attachments. So, it's attached inside a zip file.

 

And on the last time round it didn't end on the A.
Just left dangling - no sighs of relief - you owe us all a chord mate!

 

Apologies that your question here got overlooked.
As a regular question (and the most important question) there are comments in various parts of the forum.
Here's one place https://audiosex.pro/threads/changing-keys-in-hip-hop-pop-music.51666/#post-448094
and an extract from that post...

Things I like about the above resource are...
- its free (of course)
- lots of short informative videos
- presents music theory without music notation - until such time as you choose to also optionally explore music notation.

 

I remember that. It was well thought out and very thorough.

 

“A C-D F G” by me

 

Last edited: Jun 7, 2022