Hi there,
I am considering to sell my Orchestral Tools account which includes licences for

- Metropolis Ark 1
- Metropolis Ark 2
- Metropolis Ark 3
- Metropolis Ark 4
- Metropolis Ark 5

- Berlin Strings
- Berlin Brass

- Modus - Jeff Russo
- Tableau Solo Strings

All of these libraries run on SINE.

I'm not using these libraries enough (even though they sound awesome) and seem to stick to my (mostly hardware) synthesizers for making music after all.
I also realised that I don't have the necessary skills for orchestral composition ;)

The price for all of these libraries when buying from Orchestral Tools would be well over 3200€,
I think I'd be happy with something below the 2000€ mark.
If you are interested please make an offer via PM, we can talk about all the details of payment and account transfer there.

P.S. I get that this is a new account, but I have a profile on gearspace for the same username, you can contact me there alternatively.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2022

Now that's an idea!! I also could sell all my libraries bought with EDU discount (40% off orchestral tool) and resell them for a sweet profit.
Thanks for the tip.

But only the tip though, please be gentle with me.

 

Why are you being so rude?
Did you actually read my post?
I said I am open to offers BELOW 2000€.
3606€ is the accurate non-sale new price of everything included * 0,6 = 2163€. So my offer is better than EDU discount (which I never got).
I bought most of the libraries (Kontakt versions) around 2016-18, before SINE and before OT even offered EDU discounts.
If you are interested you can make any offer you want, but I also don‘t have to sell it at any cost.
I just don‘t like to keep things that I don‘t use enough to justify keeping. I also don‘t have any other references for sample library sales but a 45-60% discount is what I find perfectly reasonable.

 

Hi @NoTBatmaN

Looks like a fair deal to me!

Only problem - as I see it - is the fact you joined today and ppl in here have absolutely no experience with you - good or bad.

Over the years there have been a lot of new joined members trying to sell their stuff and a lot of them showed up to be scammers in the end.

Therefore very little interest and courage to trade with you <----- my best guess.

Good luck

 

Thanks! I understand the concern, I have posted a link to my gearspace profile because of this. Ebay is possible also. I posted my offer here because it seems to be the only place where others have offered their OT libraries.

 

You're not giving any evidence that what you're offering isn't some sort of scam, that what's rude to me.
I'm not polite to my junk mail, are you?

I'm replying this just to warn potential buyers, because I know of some musicians who got scammed this way.

A lot of red flags are there.

The new account thing. Not having done any pior sales.

The fact that you purchased year after year (as soon as 2016!) libraries that you "don't use that often", yet keep buying with relentless consistency, until the very last ones from a few months ago.

I'm not judging, but the fact that someone is willing to spend this much money on stuff that they don't use, until recently, then try to get a few bucks out of it (like you need it?) is shady AF.

Not giving an exact price is another red flag.
Saying that you will consider offers lower than 2000€ is basically a "see, I'm a good guy!" marketing technique, not facts.
This one guy comes up and offers you 1700€. And you go "oh, sorry but this other guys offers me 1900€..."
You can as high as you want, that's how bidding works.

Oh, but you bought everything before EDU even existed! And intro price sales too, right? Those are just words, and that's not the problem.
Give us receipts, sale numbers, anything traceable that a scammer wouldn't be able to say or provide.

That's step one, because scammers (who appear here from time to time) don't deserve nor respect nor politeness. I'm sure we can agree on that.

 

Last edited: Mar 19, 2022

Are you interested in buying or not @Lost In Translation or are you just making a drama in this thread?

If you´re interested you could adress your interest to @NoTBatmaN in a pm and see if it´s real or not - just a suggestion.

 

I wasn't cool-headed about this, true. But that's a false dilemma, I wasn't trying to make drama. Sending pms to random dudes to see if a deal is real or not, is exactly how scams happen on a daily basis. I've seen it happen, and was explaing how it usually goes. People trying to sell stuff should post minimal proof before asking for people to reach out to them imo

 

Didn‘t seem to be a problem for you with the other sellers who offered their OT stuff here, no?
Why you didn‘t make your scammer/profiteering accusations there?
I can provide all invoices and whatever else proof a buyer wants via PM.
I have never experienced such a reaction like yours to an offer of mine in a forum or anywhere else though. I sold the VSL Special Editions on VI Control and some other plugins on KVR without posting any screenshots or invoices first.
I even offered to do this transaction via eBay, as I have an established account there.
I probably should‘ve done that in the first place…

No, and the only reason I‘m still responding to your junk is that I can somewhat understand your point, even though your attitude towards me is not ok.
I am registered on this forum since today because I also only learned about the existence of this forum today. I found it when I looked where others sold their OT accounts.
I understand you know nothing about me and assume the worst.
That‘s in part why I provided links to now two very popular pro-audio forums where I‘ve been a member since 2016 and sold gear. I also offered to contact me there to prove that I‘m not an impostor.
I also have sold a lot of audio gear and other stuff through ebay.com and ebay-kleinanzeigen.de. Never in my life have I scammed someone, nor will I ever scam someone.

I addressed this above.

Ok, here is some soul-striptease. You asked for it.
It‘s not shady, it‘s a mixture between not knowing what I wanted, not knowing which music genre I wanted to make, a very time consuming study of electrical engineering since 2017, and also G.A.S. (Gear Acquisition Syndrome).
I started doing sound design and making music in 2013. I have bought and sold a lot of stuff in this timeframe (mostly hardware).
I even sold and later re-bought Cubase, Spectrasonics Omnisphere and the Elektron Analog Rytm.
I like to try things out, but I don’t hoard them.
I always move on if I end up not using or not liking it as much as I expected.
Getting some money back is better than getting zero and constantly being dragged down and reminded of bad buying decisions.
Everything I get back will be invested in something different, thats hopefully more useful ;)
If you would be active on gearslutz/gearspace it should be nothing new, a lot of people are like this.
I have a very diverse taste in music and when I started composing myself, I wanted to make everything I liked listening to, film music, electro/synthwave, rap beats. This resulted in me being very unfocused (regarding genre).
During my journey, I also developed a major interest, a passion in (analog/hybrid) synthesizers (that‘s why I choose to study electrical engineering btw.) and their sound, and sound design in general. During this time my ears got a lot of training.
I got a bit obsessed with recreating certain sounds/styles I liked.
Because I also wanted to make orchestral film/game music at some point and loved the sound of the OT libraries, I bought Berlin Strings and finally sold the VSL Special Editions (which I hated the sound of).
I liked the sound of Berlin Strings a lot in person too, which led to me buying more OT libraries as they were released (often intro offer bait).
I never questioned my purchases even though I didn’t use them much (single sounds on beats mainly), just because the sound was and is great to me.
But now that I really try to actually compose pure orchestral stuff with the libs, I realized I really don’t enjoy the process. It‘s very different from working mainly with my synth-hardware. Nearly all of my skills to produce a great sounding track with synths just don‘t apply there. It‘s not as immediate, there no knobs to twist and I have zero understanding of orchestras in general, which makes it hard for me to compose anything I don‘t feel like deleting soon after creation.
For the occasional rap beat it‘s enough to buy some single instruments from OT.
I have found and can embrace my own style in the electronic music spectrum now, music which can stand for itself and is 100% me and unique, I even released something
It‘s a major relief for me, but I came to this conclusion just today, after months of composing nearly no music due to RL constraint’s. Sometimes it takes a while until you can be honest with yourself.
Which means, I‘m finally ready to focus on a genre, a style, my own style. I don‘t have to do every genre just because I like to listen to it. And I don‘t have to clone every synth that sounds special to preserve this sound. I thought I had to do this for some time, because I love the sound of these synths and using them to make music. I hate the engineering/developing part, which is btw. also the reason why I will pursue something different with my engineering degree.
Anyways, it‘s once again time for me to move on, because I indeed regret buying all these sample libraries now.

I am a good guy. And I‘m not doing any marketing bullshit.
What you wrote makes no sense. If someone offered me 1900€, I could just sell it to him, no?
I also don‘t expect massive amounts of potential buyers to be active here. I‘m happy if I can sell it at all.
I have absolutely no point of reference for what OT libs sell, and I suspect others haven‘t either, do you?
My below 2k€ reference mark was to communicate at least some kind of pricing direction, to encourage people to even make an offer.

I deserve respect and politeness.

 

Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2022

No.

Not at all.

 

Returns, Refunds and Resales
What about your Returns and Refunds policy?
In general all sales are final as soon as the download of the collection(s) has commenced.
In the case of Kontakt Player-compatible collections, in limited cases a return may be possible if the serial number has not been activated. This is wholly subject to our discretion, though, and legally the cancellation right expires upon starting the download.
All Pre-Orders are final.

We provide detailed walkthrough videos for our collections and are always happy to answer any questions you might have before and after purchase.

You can read the full policy in our Terms of Service.

We are only people and we are here to provide the best virtual instruments we can.
If you feel unhappy, reach out to us. Together we can talk about your gripes and find our how to make you a happy customer.

Do you allow resales?
All Orchestral Tools collections can not be resold under any circumstances.
Similarly, we are unable to transfer any licenses between Native Instruments accounts for any reason.

 

I mean, I unleashed on your post due to recent events, but it could have been anybody else's. Nothing personnal.

The story looks like what you find in common spams. Do I judge you about what you do with your money? Hell no, the Nigerian Prince can give his money to whomever he wants for all I care. The narrative is wild is all I am saying. This + other red flags = no way it's not a total scam (usually).

And so I didn't ask for drama or for your life story, but for minimal evidence.
Which.... appart for your words, is lacking. We're musicians, we struggle, we're an easy target.
I did my part, not my problem anymore.

Have a good one now.

 

Last edited: Mar 20, 2022

Orchestral Tools is a German company. Thus they underly German jurisdiction and the jurisdiction of the EU.
There has been a decision of the EuGH that software CAN be sold AND it is against the law if a vendor tries to deny that with his terms of service.

Since I find the question interesting and have OT licenses myself, I will ask OT what their position is on this question.

Spoiler: What human logic says ...

Already from the logic it cannot be that I cannot dispose of a license, which I bought.
For example,
- because I inherit and my heirs could not take over the license, which represents a value?
- Or I convert my self employment firm into a corporation? ....

Such restrictions would constitute a "surprising clause" under German law on "general terms and conditions" (AGB Gesetz, now part of the BGB (Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch) that unreasonably disadvantages one party. It would therefore be invalid.

Sometimes - only sometimes - I really like to be German or EU citizen respectively. We are quite well protected against the arbitrariness of companies.

Spoiler: What specialized Lawyers say...

Yes, trading in used software is generally permissible. The European Court of Justice clarified this issue in 2012 in its decision UsedSoft GmbH ./. Oracle International Corp. (Ref.: C-128/11). The background to this was a reference procedure by the BGH. After the ECJ had rendered the interim decision, the BGH had to rule on the case in Germany. The BGH followed the guidelines of the ECJ and found that trade in used software is lawful and that resale cannot be excluded by license agreements.

The prerequisite for the exhaustion effect of the author's distribution right (so-called exhaustion principle) is that the software has been put 1) on the market in the European Economic Area with the consent of the rights holder, 2) the license has been transferred for an unlimited period of time and the 3) rights holder has received appropriate remuneration for this license. The burden of proof for this lies with the first acquirer. Furthermore, if he wishes to resell the software, he must 4)render his copy of the software unusable. (the activation codes etc)
All 4 Conditions are met for OT licenses. The sale of EDU licenses would possibly be an unjust enrichment under German law and therefore not permitted, except to EDU beneficiaries.
https://www.kanzlei.biz/faqs/kann-ich-eine-software-lizenz-weiterverkaufen/

 

Last edited: Mar 20, 2022

It´s not my personal quote @twoheart - it´s a copy paste from OTs website........
Personal quote: I find it completely od you cant resell software!!

 

1.) Can I resell a software license?

Yes, trading in used software is generally permissible. The European Court of Justice clarified this issue in 2012 in its decision UsedSoft GmbH ./. Oracle International Corp. (Ref.: C-128/11). The background to this was a reference procedure by the BGH. After the ECJ had rendered the interim decision, the BGH had to rule on the case in Germany. The BGH followed the guidelines of the ECJ and found that trade in used software is lawful and that resale cannot be excluded by license agreements.

The prerequisite for the exhaustion effect of the author's distribution right (so-called exhaustion principle) is that the software has been put on the market in the European Economic Area with the consent of the rights holder, the license has been transferred for an unlimited period of time and the rights holder has received appropriate remuneration for this license. The burden of proof for this lies with the first acquirer. Furthermore, if he wishes to resell the software, he must make his copy of the software unusable.

Category/ies: IT law, Copyright law

Source: https://www.kanzlei.biz/faqs/kann-ich-eine-software-lizenz-weiterverkaufen/

2.) "Trading in used software licenses is completely legal and is therefore a sensible and, above all, cost-effective alternative to purchasing new software for many companies and public institutions. However, the business is very complex. It is true that in the case of used software, dealers or sellers must adhere to the "obligations typical of a contract of sale" of the German Civil Code just like everyone else.

Among other things, this stipulates that the seller must provide the buyer with ownership of the respective object of sale - in this case, in accordance with the ECJ's statement, the software copy. But can companies check the authenticity of the associated documents such as delivery bill, invoice or uninstallation confirmation on their own?

A good way for companies is therefore to rely on an experienced dealer who meticulously checks the licenses for legal requirements at the time of purchase and provides a guarantee to the customer that the goods are flawless," explains Andreas E. Thyen, Chairman of the Board of Directors of Lizenzdirekt AG.
www.lizenzdirekt.com

Spoiler: Myth 1: Trading in used software licenses violates copyright law.

Myth 1: Trading in used software licenses violates copyright law.

Wrong, a software manufacturer cannot oppose the resale of his software and its licenses - after all, this is not the case with other used works, such as a book. Thus, the trade with used software in the European Economic Area has been regulated for several years by supreme court rulings and is therefore absolutely serious and legal.

The so-called principle of exhaustion applies: once sold, the distribution rights of the manufacturer, with the exception of the rental right, are exhausted with respect to the software copy and he is no longer entitled to control or approve the resale of the software. However, the prerequisite is that the licenses were first placed on the market in the territory of the European Union or another contracting state of the European Economic Area with the consent of the right holder and that the right holder granted a perpetual right of use. Caution is therefore advised with regard to dealers who offer licenses from Canada or Australia, for example - as is unfortunately still the case at present.

Spoiler: Myth 2: Downloads are not considered licenses and therefore may not be resold

Myth 2: Downloads are not considered licenses and therefore may not be resold

This is not true either. It is true that the courts in the Federal Republic of Germany had a hard time with this question, because according to German law a "non-physical" download is not property. However, according to the case law of the European Court of Justice (ECJ), it is now also true in this country that the person who "acquires" a computer program - i.e. pays for it - also owns it and may resell it accordingly. Even in the case of downloads after the first sale, the manufacturer no longer has a right of distribution under the aforementioned conditions - and thus may not control or impede the resale.

 

Last edited: Mar 20, 2022

Of course, I know its a cut & paste thing
Where I live there is a saying for companies that try to dupe their customers with their conditions against their better knowledge:
"Paper is patient" - IDK if that translates well but it means, people can write down what they want but if its against the law they won't succeed.

 

In fact, OT has already replied to me. On a Sunday, within 2 hours. Da capo!

I have to revise myself. It is not software in the traditional sense, but a sync license similar to the one you buy on a piece of music lets say for a jingle. I may use it myself, but I cannot trade it.

In the meantime I had come to the same conclusion myself that this can't work:
With a further licensing to third parties the circle of the licensees would be extended unduly. One could complete a piece of music and the samples contained in it would be licensed.
Then you sell the collection and the next person finishes his piece of music, again the samples would be licensed.
... and so on and so forth ...
This can't work because you would end up with 1000 licensees for the one sale....

Sorry to come to this conclusion. OT is right, we can't sell/buy licenses for their products lawfully.

p.s.: Another case would be complete legal succession - as in the examples of inheritance and different company name.

 

Last edited: Mar 20, 2022

Ok this somewhat makes sense.
But I wonder though, by that logic, Roland/Yamaha/Korg should be able to prevent the second hand sale of any of their hardware workstations that contain samples?
It is the same situation regarding the samples.
And what about the companies that do officially license transfers like VSL?
They should all have the same problem of unlimited licenses then. VSL takes a small fee for a license transfer and the hardware companies could never realistically enforce such terms that would disallow resale.

 

You're right about that.
There are obviously manufacturers who are more relaxed about it. However, when it comes to transfers, we depend on how the company in question sees it. OT unfortunately sees it more restrictively.

 

ohhh, realy???

interesting, very interesting... bacause my expirience proving absolutely another