Type of music I do :
I mainly produce music using virtual instruments using a midi keyboard. Rarely some vocal recordings.

My set up currently:
I am currently using Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 (1st gen) and motherboard- Gigabyte Intel LGA 20113 X99 4way SLI/CrossFireX ATX Motherboards GAX99UD4. I have 32 gigs of RAM.

Need:
Need an upgrade to reduce latency and process more virtual instruments/plugins seamlessly.

Recommendation needed:
Any good recommendation for audio interface. I am looking at Apollo Solo. Would Apollo solo suffice for my need? To get the maximum out of it, I am hearing thunderbolt 3 is the way to go.
My motherboard doesn't support thunderbolt. Do I need to upgrade my motherboard as well? If so, Any good recommendation for motherboard as well?

 

I am picturing Wayne Gretzky, skating in hell. on the same day I would do this.

all you will be getting in practice is a nice set of outputs. the mic input is fine, but it's definitely nothing special for what sound like your purposes. plugins are nice and expensive, but you won't have to worry about that; because of how few you can run with the amount of dsp provided by the solo.

if you are barely recording anything in to it, the 40gbs speed of a tb-3 connection is also negligible in benefit. and not something I would be replacing a motherboard over.

 

Last edited: Dec 18, 2021

Before you upgrade try to do some tweaking in bios, memory timing, ring/cache overclock ect ect... the two i mentioned (ram timings and ring clock) are the two MOST important parameters you need to work with, pushing these further (ram timing works in reverse the less timings the better) the faster and better overall performance you get, i'm pretty sure you have a lot of performance on the table you're not taking advantage of, i'd be able to help you out if you're up for the challenge.

 

You'll allways be limited by the Disk read/write speed and some thunderbolt over usb 3 isnt the solution imo. A difference from 5 to 2 ms of latency really can't be percibed by senses.

Maybe you're looking for a PCI express solution. Pci-e is by far the most speediest conection. If you want the fastest near real time solution i recomend m.2 nvme disks + pcie audio interface.

"Using the RedNet PCIe card, it is possible to achieve a round trip latency figure of less than 3ms at all sample rates, assuming a DAW buffer size of 32 samples or less and a network latency setting of 250uS or less."

 

Any help on how to tweak would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

Hello @vignmusic first 3 Questions: What CPU do you have? Windows 10? Which DAW?

Use LatencyMoon www.resplendence.com/latencymon

 

Intel Core i75960X HaswellE 8Core 3.0GHz LGA 2011v3 140W
Desktop Processor BX80648I75960X
Samsung 850 Pro 256GB 2.5Inch SATA III Internal SSD
Gigabyte Intel LGA 20113 X99 4way SLI/CrossFireX ATX Motherboards
GAX99UD4

I'm using cubase 10.5 as daw and windows 10-64 bit

 

Thanks for the data, if not known yet, please read:

Glitch Free by Brad Robinson
Don't let audio glitches ruin your performances!
An in-depth guide to tuning Windows for reliable real-time audio performance. A free eBook.
www.cantabilesoftware.com/glitchfree/

Windows: How to set-up and optimize a Digital Audio Workstation
https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/...t-up-and-optimize-a-Digital-Audio-Workstation

I would recommend a faster CPU and a PCI card from RME. A graphics card would also relieve the CPU.

Spoiler: Latency

Latency

Latency or latency (reaction time, delay time) occurs in every digital audio system. Every digital audio system is endowed with a certain inertia from "birth". This inertia results from the required computing time and a safety reserve. A high latency could cause many problems, so you should choose an ASIO sound card with as low a latency as possible.

In order to achieve low latency values, you should first and foremost choose a sound card manufacturer who has programmed the ASIO driver correctly and has given its sound card a DSP / CPU chip. Because this sound card could conserve the resources of the computer CPU and minimize the latency in advance.

The second and probably the most important requirement for very low latency values is a very fast computer processor (CPU). He bears almost the entire burden of calculating latency.

tubeheat - January 14, 2016
An optimally coordinated system is rarely available "off the shelf". The right hardware selection (CPU, chipset, DRAM, hard disks) is just as crucial for good quality - i.e. low latencies - as is the later optimization of the BIOS and system settings.

Windows is not a real-time OS. Hardware-triggered interrupts start so-called low-level routines, drivers and DPCs (deferred procedure calls). These cannot be interrupted by anything other than themselves (= good programming) during their runtime on a CPU core. If they last too long (latency) and if important audio processes for the transport of audio data (between DAW and recording interface) happen to run on the same CPU core, then the delay can be so great that the unwanted crackles occur. Then the audio data arrives too late at the recording interface.
Other important requirements for low latency values are:

- Purchase of a recording interface with optimized ASIO drivers (RME has made a good name for itself here)

- Shutdown of processor energy saving functions (saves up to over 200µs kernel latency)
- Use the energy saving profile "High performance"

- Switching off unnecessary hardware in the BIOS (reduces unnecessary interrupts, DPCs, as explained above)

- Critical selection of software add-ons from motherboard manufacturers, best to only install the drivers that are really needed and leave out everything else with (alleged) "comfort functionality", mostly poorly written and block the system

- System analysis and, if possible, elimination of drivers that use up too much CPU time

- Avoidance of drivers that generate a high CPU / interrupt load themselves (LAN, WLAN)

- Avoidance of system architectures in which the graphics are only integrated into the CPU

- Shutdown of CPU core parking (Windows specific)

- Switching off Windows programs / services that are not absolutely necessary and that can sporadically generate load. For example services, processes from task planning, permanently running update services from installed programs (Google, Java, ..)

- Be careful when installing programs from the Internet, there are often partially hidden software additions that nestle in the system or in the Internet browser because of an alleged additional benefit, but usually also unnecessarily overload the system with functions and create undesirable loads that occurs at some point spontaneously or at the runtime of an application.

PCIe Audio Interfaces (Market overview April 2021)
https://audiosex.pro/threads/pcie-audiointerface-market-overview-april-2021.58938/

Spoiler: The Internal Card Option

The Internal Card Option

In this connection comparison, it would be remiss of me not to mention the classic option of an internal soundcard. PCIe-based soundcards have become rare in recent years, as many users have grown to appreciate the ability of being able to take their studio-grade recording interfaces out on the road and work remotely on laptop setups. The interface market reflects this.

For many years, interfaces which connected to the computer via a host PCIe card, such as this RME model, were the only option for high-bandwidth, low-latency audio. While USB has improved in that respect, and Thunderbolt seems finally to be catching up with PCIe, there’s no good reason to abandon a PCIe-based audio interface as a matter of principle — they’re still capable of great performance.
For many years, interfaces which connected to the computer via a host PCIe card, such as this RME model, were the only option for high-bandwidth, low-latency audio. While USB has improved in that respect, and Thunderbolt seems finally to be catching up with PCIe, there’s no good reason to abandon a PCIe-based audio interface as a matter of principle — they’re still capable of great performance.

Yet, in a situation where more bandwidth is required, PCIe still rules the roost for data transfer rates, with some of the lowest recording latencies currently available. It’s still seen on some of the more specialist broadcast-industry cards for this reason, and it means that some older cards by the likes of RME and Lynx still offer fantastic performance. If you own one of these and are planning on updating a desktop machine, it might be worth finding one with a PCIe slot available. However, the format’s performance is being strongly challenged by the newer Thunderbolt standards and interfaces.

Source: www.soundonsound.com/techniques/choosing-pc-audio-interface-sos-guide

 

Last edited: Dec 18, 2021

If I get a thunderbolt interface, would I be able to use it with thunderbolt to USB adapter?

 

Frequently Asked Questions about Thunderbolt 3
www.seagate.com/support/kb/frequently-asked-questions-about-thunderbolt-3-007771en/

 

the transfer rate drops to whatever the usb/adapter are. the Mac tb3-usb2 ones are not cheap and fail frequently.

 

I still don't understand why usb is considered a bottleneck for audio recording. Apollo uses an internal DSP to process effects & instruments, with the result of greatly lowering the latency (that's why it is so popular). I believe that an Apollo usb will perfectly fits your need: no need to upgrade your setup just to have a thunderbolt interface, in your case you won’t be able to have an effective benefit

 

[MANBOARD] GIGABYTE Z390 DESIGNARE

- Supports 9th and 8th Gen Intel Core processors
- Dual Channel Non-ECC Unbuffered DDR4, 4 DIMMs
- 12+1 Phases digital VRM solution with DrMOS
- Advanced thermal design with direct touch heat pipe
- Intel Thunderbolt 3 – the USB-C that does it all.Bluetooth 5
- Dual Ultra-Fast M.2 with PCIe Gen3 x4 interface with Thermal Guards
- Smart Fan 5 features Multiple Temperature Sensors and Hybrid Fan Headers with FAN STOP
- Front USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type-C Header

www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/Z390-DESIGNARE-rev-10#kf

 

@recycle we are in agreement 99%. I am just saying it (UAD/tb3 investment) for his scenario would be a big waste of money for very little improvement. output sound, expensive plugins. tb3 is overkill for this. it will also let the solo run off that bus 100% drawing power with all its electrical might via 40gbs cable.

 

Last edited: Dec 18, 2021

USB 2 has a lot of data tracking to keep the bits in sync. Fire wire in reality is faster than USB 2 because its able to let the data flow faster.Since there is no real data sync to slow the data down.. So for me I have fire wire now and looking to upgrade to Thunderbolt.
Because of speed.
This is a basic explanation. I am sure others can explain it in deeper than I.

 

Your CPU is a bit out of date - maybe you should buy a new motherboard.


This is enough to make music:

SSL 2+ 240 €
2x4 USB-C Audiointerface
www.solidstatelogic.com/products/ssl2-plus

Audient iD14 MKII - 209 €
USB-C Audiointerface
https://audient.com/products/audio-interfaces/id14/overview/

[MANBOARD] GIGABYTE Z390 DESIGNARE

- Supports 9th and 8th Gen Intel® Core™ Processors
- Supports 9th and 8th Gen Intel Core processors
- Dual Channel Non-ECC Unbuffered DDR4, 4 DIMMs
- 12+1 Phases digital VRM solution with DrMOS
- Advanced thermal design with direct touch heat pipe
- Intel Thunderbolt 3 – the USB-C that does it all.Bluetooth 5
- Dual Ultra-Fast M.2 with PCIe Gen3 x4 interface with Thermal Guards
- Smart Fan 5 features Multiple Temperature Sensors and Hybrid Fan Headers with FAN STOP
- Front USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type-C Header

www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/Z390-DESIGNARE-rev-10#kf

www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/Z390-DESIGNARE-rev-10/support#support-cpu

[CPU] Intel Core i9-9900KF, Intel® Core™ i9 der 9. Generation, LGA 1151 (Socket H4), PC, 14 nm, Intel, 3,6 GHz - 489 EUR

 

Last edited: Dec 18, 2021

The two audio interface you mention are absolutely good for the price

About latency:
From the published table you can see usb interfaces with lower latency than Thunderbolt ones. There is actually no great correlation between the port bandwidth and the daw latency. The latency is mainly due to the processing power of the computer and audio driver: hoping to lower the latency by just using a thunderbolt interface is too simplistic.

 

Beside the point, the issue isn't speeds with audio interface, USB 2.0 is more than enough to handle a full band recording the issue is latency...

when using USB the issue is this, the USB controllers are all built in the chipset, and the chipset handles a lot more than a few usb controllers, it handles Sata controllers, network controllers (1Gbits only, 2.5 and more have dedicated controllers connected directly to the CPU via traced PCI lanes similar to inserting a pcie based card to a x1 or x4 slot but directly connected) and sometimes audio controller and more, this can create a lot of stress on the chipset and the smallest stress can affect your usb audio interface, for example try to copy data through network when playing a guitar through an amp sim with low latency and enjoy all sort of glitches, also copying data from a drive to another can have an effect and this is where a high end motherboard comes in handy as it will handle audio way better than your average ones...

Now what you can do is this, you can buy a high end PCIE-based USB addon card and use it for your audio interface, this will eliminate any sort of issue, as the addon card will have it's own pcie lanes and won't be affects by what's going on with the rest of your computer.

Now to thunderbolt, thunderbolt can handle a lot of protocols it is basically pcie lanes through usb, and can manage data and data flow way better than your average usb controller, bandwidth aside, Thunderbolt is the best external option for audio interfaces after pcie based audio interfaces, easier to code a driver fort on windows side as there's less of issues to overcome...

 

RME PCIE seems to be very expensive.
Any other suggestions? Is Apollo solo not good enough or are there better options for the same price?