Okay so I know I'm not the only one that has this problem so I figured why not start a thread and see if we can't find the answers together because it's a common question and the answer could help a lot of people. Before we start I'd like to just mention that use your ears though true is not a valid response because if it were that easy I would have done just that. My ears are still developing in this regard and unless it's a 808 kick with some sustain I can't tell the difference.

Okay so let's get down to some questions: let's start with a discussion as to whether this is really necessary. I know in EDM it might be a given for many but I was wondering what about other genres such as Industrial? And if it's so important why are samples not tagged with the key and why do so many kick VSTs not even have a place for setting the note. Also what happens if you modulate key in your song? Then the next part of my question has to do with determining the note. When I open Voxengo's Harmonieq on the channel on many kicks the fundamental is this big wide thing and determining the halfway point is difficult. The problem is that a little left or a little right can be a completely different note so how do you guys handle this situation? If you need an example then load up Native Instruments Battery and choose the Arena kit. Check out Kicks 2, 3 and 7 and see if you can find the pitch of each. The next part of my question has to do with other drums like claps, snares, toms, etc. Do you also have to tune every drum kit element too? If so it will probably take an hour before you can even work on a song.

So I'm interested in how you more experienced and knowledgeable guys approach this.

Thanks for your time.

 

If you want to give this a more analytical approach than just 'by ear' sometimes a frequency/notes chart could be useful, plus an analyzer, at least in a first sight. In really short elements or acoustic stuff sometimes is unnecesary to try to fit everything with the key of the track. When you face an element that is just a 'burst of noise' without any 'singing' note I think the only way to test it is playing it over the others instruments. Sometimes it´s a better scenario than when you have everything forced to be exactly fitting because there will be less chances of overlapping notes and fighting between elements, so you can highlight with EQ specific points of the spectrum that are not shared by the drums with other stuff and give them their own space.

Industrial is not -for me- a 'everything must fit' style at all. Maybe the 'imperfections' help with the overall color of the style and drums will cut better if they are 'isolated' -in terms of scale- or not forced to the key.

Sometimes, in kicks I find a resonance in the upper cutting frequencies, and it´s more aparent than the subs, so I use to match that high note with the scale of the song and leave the low end as is. Every example out there is about sustained subby stuff and that doesn´t work as a rule in every style.

Industrial sometimes have lots of fast and close with each others kickdrums and if you 'assign' -by forcing or overtweaking- a note to that element you could end perceiving it as an annoying distracting drone. Is more 'safe' to work with short and not singing elements in that kind of beats. In some industrial bands their drums are reduced almost as a click to avoid interferences.

Lastly, sweeping with a EQ point trough an element will show you if there´s some specific/exact notes content, but in a burst element you will find more than one for sure, sometimes out of scale inside itself , and get ready if you work with overlayered industrial drums...

 

As Xsze, in really sub or overprocessed stuff I also tune up one or two octaves the element to figure out if it´s on a exactly note. That´s a really clear way to reveal the content of blurred elements. Try to don´t take this process too obsessively, embrace imperfections before deleteing any sample.

 

Heeey!!! W'sup Cata'boy I got the remedy for your problem

I had this kind of question myself 1 year ago too, and guess what, i found out and now i detect the pitch of a drum sample in just 1-5 seconds.

Look, Presonus Studio One 2 have implemented Melodyne and, i just right click the sample and choose "Edit with Melodyne" and inside the arrangement view it pops up a little melodyne window with your sample's waveform and in the left side it shows you which note is that particular sample if is single note sample, also a "scale selector" extra bar in the left side too (to show you which scale your sample have, in case you have a chord sound or multiple notes at once). Also this tip works in any daw, you just need the Melodyne plug, and you also have to set up a thing to show you the scale selector/big notes. Click a little arrow in the left as you can see in the screenshot i attached exclusively for you(using a sub kick sample) and go to "Scale Editor" then "Selector and Master Tuning". After you click that, a extra scale selector bar will appear in the left side forever (you have to do this only and just one time to be able to pop-up that left scale selector for the future use with less steps for achieving this task).

Also if your kick drum or snare is rich in harmonics, make sure to select "melodic" algorithm in the top menu for every kind of drum sample you wanna know it's pitch, because i don't see the use for "polyphonic" algorithm for a single drum sample.

Cheers!

 

You can also do that with FL-Edison,
that guy from Warbeats made a Tutorial...

 

I gave up on tryna tune my drums. I jus do whatever sounds good. Even with Bazzism you can toggle tour kick by key but I always end up dropping or raising a couple octaves/steps from the track's key. Snares even more so because most snare samples in edm nowadays are just noise with no real one general frequency. Now tombs are the only exception. You gots to tune them joints but other than that I think its better to trust your ear.

Also if I'm ever havin a real hard time tunning drums. I single out the meat of the transient and then try to match it to the track. My work flow requires me always do this at some point anyways since I layer all my drums with different parts of multiple samples.

 

Xsze
Thanks a lot man. Seeing how other producers handle this issue is really helpful and I'm sure others will agree. Fuad said he'd drop by with some tips and a peek in to how he handles this issue, certainly looking forward to that.

carl
You had the same line of thinking as me. I don't think Industrial artists are sitting there trying to tune their kick to the key of their track...particularly because they don't give a crap about music theory or convention so that's 3 for 3.

Evorax
Thanks so much for the information man. This is actually a return question for me because I never really got it to begin with or rather I get the concept but it was the practice that stumped me. I actually was experimenting with pitch detection plugs but from what I understood they aren't entirely accurate with transient sounds. Are you sure that it's accurate in it's detection? Either way you gave some tips that I didn't know about that might help me get a more accurate reading. Thanks a lot.

And it's funny that you said to not take it obsessively because I'm a perfectionist and I'm pretty sure I have OCD.

funkytoe
Yeah I've actually tried Edison as well as some other apps up to the job but there have been times when I got different results from program to program and it made me question if it wasn't just getting stumped because after all a kick is pitch modulation and there might be many note values along the path of the sweep if that makes sense.

geraldthegenius
That's pretty much where I'm at because this is one of those areas that are a real pain in the ass. And yeah toms I'm sure have to be tuned in relation to the track as well as each other because the tonal qualities are so prominent.

 

Of course it does, when i used it with my kicks and also snares and toms, i tested them by starting producing a whole song in the key of the kick or snare or whatever sample i visualized in melodyne and it always sounded smooth together after that, even in a progressive song, after i saw the note/key of a kick, then i added a sidechained bass long note in the key of that kick and it really sounded smoother together, like a dick fitted in a ex deflowered pussy .
You can't complain about Melodyne's accuracy, because it also have "polyphonic" algorithm which can show you the key of the kick's click and also sub bass separatelly, but you could use this algorithm only if you feel doubtful.

 

I used to use a spectrum analyzer for that task, but now I'm mostly using Bazzism, where you can tune your kick with one click, saves a lot of time.

It also depends on the genre (or what you mean by the term Industrial). 'American' Industrial, or real Industrial? *yes*

My Indutrial kicks don't need tuning at all, they need distortion.

 

I just recently started debating about going HAM on tuning the drums a few weeks back, and all I gotta say is that it depends on the genre. But overall if you can tune the damn thang without destroying the sample……. do it. I find that tracks sound a little tighter if you're capable of tuning a few if not all of the drums. The way I've chosen to try and do this is by using that surf EQ and sometimes Melodyne. I gotta admit, though, sometimes a drum sample has no fundamental frequency to it because its so low or it's too layered. In those situations you gotta trust ye old L & R on the side of our heads.It's rather time consuming but once you get a workflow for it, it's just another part of production.

Like I said, if you can get away with not doing it…..do it.And if you can't……... do that too!

 

The polyphonic algorithm on Melodyne is determining every tonal information of that particular sample, even if it's a layered kick. I used Melodyne on a layered kick and it shown the kick's click note and also the sub note information separately and... we must admit... Melodyne was the first powerful pitch detection and tuning plug so in my opinion Celemony is the most experienced company when it comes about this task. (and no, it's not only for vocals, because they wouldn't implement the "percussive algorithm" or "polyphonic" algorithm if it was only for vocal tuning.

 

dokx
I don't really want to limit the conversation to a specific genre because I'm into a lot of different styles of music, I just mentioned Industrial because...well because a good Industrial kick is a fucking thing of beauty. I guess it's the genre I'm most interested in. To that end Heavyocity Damage has a lot of the sound I'm looking for but I want to get there the old-fashioned way, when I use that library it feels like cheating.

How can one place limits on Industrial? American...Euro, the canadian scene...whatever strap me down and boot me up. And by the way American Industrial had some legendary acts lest we forget Chemlab, 16Volt and countless others. Plus Skinny Puppy and FLA were out of Canada, not the US but definitely not Europe. Nowadays there are actually quite a few really great Industrial bands from the states. *yes*

​

CHEMLAB ​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXEz9gSlQhA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QaLkLsCeOo

ghostinthemachine
You can do real-time pitch shifting with no artifacts with zPlane Elastique Pitch. *yes*

 

I was referring to 'Pop Industrial' with sampled guitars like Marilyn Manson, Ministry, KMFDM, Combichrist or Nine Inch Nails...

Back in the day Industrial was associated with the most extrem music like SPK, Throbbing Gristle, then later e.g. Genocide Organ, Grey Wolves, In Slaugher Natives, Haus Arafna, Whitehouse, Blackhouse etc. But this is now called Noise/Power Electronics...and there is Hellectro now which is also associated with Industrial.

 

Yeah at its inception Industrial was really different than what it has become now, even very different between Gristle and Puppy and that's not even that long of a timeline. Not the biggest fan of Manson and NIN but the latter has some okay stuff. Some Combichrist and KMFDM is okay though they've been meh lately. Now there's a million offshoots including Aggrotech, Electro-Industrial, Power Noise, etc. If I could have anyone's drum and fx experience it would definitely be Binary Park and FLA, they just kick ass. By the way there's actually some Throbbing Gristle and other good stuff in Transmissions III, you should check it out you'd probably like it.

 

I was a bit disappointed by FLA going dubsteppy with their latest, but I did like SP's new one.

But both have ultimate big kicks ready, that's for sure.

 

FLA is definitely undergoing some changes (they actually took some younger guys under their wing) but I really liked AirMech and Echogenetic even though it's not the traditional fare. Yeah SP's was surprisingly really great, it had that old school vibe to it while somehow being a contemporary sound for them.

 

Hi Guys
Nice topic
I find the new EQ8 in Live 9 very usefull for that task: the analyser displays frequencies and notes: find the proeminent peak, move your mouse on it and voila : you have the key !
Sorry for my bad english ;)

 

eq8 , or whatever spectrum analyzer.
if it doesn't find -> pitch up 12 semitones.
if it doesn"t find -> ditto
if it doesn"t find -> play back from right after transient.

 

And what if he doesn't uses the Ableton daw? Does he have to install a whole host just for that particular task?

 

Oups,
Equilibrium from DMG can display the notes of frequencies on a virtual keyboard
I was saying that because sometimes, it's hard to remember the frequencies musical notes (exept A 440).